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View Diary: Senate GOP: Let Us Destroy UAW, Or We'll Destroy the Economy (375 comments)

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  •  wrong reasons, right move (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rich in PA

    I totally agree with the ulterior motive of the GOP (ie why they're blocking it), but this really is a waste of money with poor oversight and nothing of meaning in return. As someone else said, it could be a win win: bad bill fails, GOP gets blame for consequncea of delay.

    Howver, I don't get the "Repubs will pay foe this" line of thinking, if a plurality of Americans doesn't support the giveaway.

    LoadedOrygun.net--Oregon's Progressive Community

    by torridjoe on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:31:18 PM PST

    •  a plurality SUPPORTS the bridge loan. (5+ / 0-)

      I suggest you look at more recent polls.  Pollster.com will serve you well.

      Better DEAD than red!

      by AfroPonix on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:33:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with everything you've said (0+ / 0-)

      Even an evil stopped clock that hates you is right twice a day, and that's where we stand with the Republican position on the auto bailout.

      -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

      by Rich in PA on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:35:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why is it a give away if we loan them $14 billion (5+ / 0-)

      instead of absorbing the $65 - $130 billion a collapse would cost the country at this time, when we cannot afford it, and it would almost certainly push us over the precipice into a deflationary depression?

      •  Aye, there's the rub (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LordMike, Go Kid Hugo

        I can't say for sure, but would $14 billion now help prevent us from paying a lot more later?  Could be...

        Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

        by Linnaeus on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:41:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  WeR already @ the tip of the deflationary iceburg (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LordMike, Foxwizard

        Better DEAD than red!

        by AfroPonix on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:47:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think this is a classic example of (4+ / 0-)

        burning down the city in order to prove a point.  I personally do not see any logic in it at all, especially as after January 20th, 2009 the whoile thing can go back to the drawing board.

        For god's sake folks, I cannot understand some of the meanspirited vengefull attitudes here. On Fox news, yes, they are totally understandable. But here?  the place that claims to be the most progressive of progressive blogs, abd many are still willing to throw the union workers out with the bathwater.

        Unbelievable.

      •  The thing is (0+ / 0-)

        It's not going to be just $14 billion.  Everybody agrees that it's just going to be $14 billion until March 31st.  After that, there will be at least one more go around of additional funding-in theory.  In reality, there will be as many more rounds as we can stand until everybody gives up and lets them go bankrupt (and out of business).

        The end result will be a lot more than $14 billion.  GM and Chrysler will never make a profit ever again.  More specifically, they will probably both lose billions and billions of dollars until they run out of money.  Let's say that, combined, the lose three billion dollars a month.  I think this is a fair number.  GM is known to be losing about two billion dollars a month right now.  It's about three and a half months until March 31st.  14 billion divided by 3.5 is four billion, so maybe three billion is being generous and the actual number is four billion per month.

        The question here is, how long do you want to keep GM and Chrysler in business?  Let's use the higher four billion number.  $48 billion will buy you a year.  $96 billion will buy you two.

        Is it worth $14 billion, or $48 billion, or $96 billion to merely delay the inevitable?

        GM and/or Chrysler, probably both, will fail.  This is guaranteed.  $14 billion merely delays this for three and a half months.

        There are probably two ways to prevent GM and/or Chrysler failing:

        1. Nationalize them.  Make American Leyland out of the combined company.  Of course, this changes nothing in terms of their losses.  In a way, the bailout does exactly this already, so why not pay the $2.52 billion that it would cost to buy every single GM share (plus a smaller figure for the smaller, non-publicly traded Chrysler) and go for it all the way?
        1. Ban the import of foreign-made cars.  Of course, this bans the Prius and Civic Hybrids, but meh.

        If GM or Chrysler were doing well before the current financial meltdown, one could make an argument that this was a good idea.  But they were completely screwed up long before the current crisis.  In fiscal year 2007, GM lost $38.7 billion.

        GM and Chrysler are both brain-dead.  We are just arguing about when to take them off of life support.

        •  So pull the plug now and get an additional (0+ / 0-)

          1 million layoffs in the next three months or so? We need to understand what that will do to all of us. In good times, that would send us into a recession. At this time, it will drive even the foreign companies to the brink. Toyota is hurting, Honda and Nissan are talking about closing their American plants already. And so it goes.

          I am not so certain of the future that I am willing to put the country through another 12 years deep depression.

          For one thing, it still is possible that GM can evolve another kind of car company, and Chrysler can achieve some focus. Ford is an excellent example; it is refocusing and streamlining, and is in a position where it doesn't need cash right away.

          But the real bottom line is that we will pay; the money will go out, but what will it get us? We can pay it out as losses to the economy, immediate unemployment in the millions, a foreclosure rate doubling to 15% of all mortgages and massive dislocations of homelessness, hunger and death. Or, we can buy breathing room to get out of the recession before we have to put GM in bankruptcy and reshape it.

          Only somebody with the mind of a terrorist would prefer to buy immediate chaos and death with it because of their ideology.

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