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View Diary: Israel attacking unarmed ship! US citizens and others in grave danger! (294 comments)

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  •  Fischy, no onee is saying they don;t have an (5+ / 0-)

    interest here...the question is whether it is a legitimate one.

    I am sure everyone on that boat understands that it is a blockade.  Does that justify denying it port and ramming it?

    We can accept your assumptions and still decline to support that.  After all,Bush had an interest in not sharing information on the US Prosecutors, illegal wire tapping, torture and so on.

    "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

    by SteveP on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:24:10 PM PST

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    •  I'd want to know more.... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Arken, mayim, kyril, SteveP

      I haven't watched the CNN report. Have those on the boat offered up the ship for Israeli inspection? I'm not saying the Israeli Navy is going to be interested in taking the time and resources to that effort, but they should at least have presented themselves for Israeli inspection. If they did that, but were told to turn around and the ship kept coming anyway, it should come as no surprise that the Navy bumped the ship. That's a clear signal that they're not playing here, and they won't allow the ship through.

      Irrespective of the legitimacy of not allowing the ship through, it should be hardly surprising. If they wanted to get through without such a confrontation, they should have secured Israeli approval. We can agitate for that, but it doesn't change the recklessness of this ship's conduct. Trying to run a blockade is just plain stupid.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:33:31 PM PST

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      •  No it's not, it's an act of protest (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lysias, conchita, ArtSchmart

        a pretty honourable tradition.  Many of our most revered historical figures put themselves in personal jeopardy to succor the helpless or needy.

        I perfectly agree there's a lot to be learned here - but I suspect we'll have one or two more impactful things to investigate as this goes on.

        "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

        by SteveP on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:37:48 PM PST

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        •  OK. It's both (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bythesea, mayim, kyril

          It's an act of protest with an honorable tradition, and it's also stupid to run a blockade in wartime.

          No reason it can't be both. It's a courageous protest, but a really stupid personal risk.

          BTW -- are you British? I note your British spelling of honourable.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:59:10 PM PST

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      •  Check out Ha'aretz: (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bythesea, kyril, SteveP

        http://www.haaretz.com/...

        Especially this part:

        Palmor [spokesman for Israel's Foreign Ministry] denied there had been any shooting although the two ships made "physical contact." He said no one had been hurt and that the Israeli ship escorted the aid boat back to Cypriot territorial waters.

        Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. Now shut the fuck up and stay there. Also.

        by Kaili Joy Gray on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:51:17 PM PST

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        •  interesting piece (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kyril

          I wanna know where this stuff happened.  Interesting that Israel declared it a military zone and not a Blackade...changes the legalities quite a lot.

          "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

          by SteveP on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:05:19 AM PST

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          •  Do you know... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SteveP

            the differences of military zone versus blockade?  I don't, but then, I'm not sure it makes much difference now.  The incident is over, and no one was hurt.  That is a good thing, isn't it?

            Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. Now shut the fuck up and stay there. Also.

            by Kaili Joy Gray on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:11:33 AM PST

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            •  absolutely (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Angry Mouse

              I don't know specifically...because of this thread I was just reading up on Blockades and what is legal and not. Military zones have different rules since it's not a blockade of goods or ships, it's an interdiction of passage.

              There are rules against damaging or sinking third party ships in a legal blockade. But presumably not in a military zone. It's almost certain however if they are indeed back in Cypriot waters that they were not in the military zone which would probably make their contact illegal and their refusal to allow them to proceed to Europe illegal.  Now, the article does say that they refused to answer communications, so it's possible a lot of that is just communications issues.

              They're obvious not interested in interdicting shipping per se, they want no third parties to see what's going on. That's scary.

              "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

              by SteveP on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:25:10 AM PST

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              •  Thanks. (0+ / 0-)

                Here's a link to another story about the incident:

                http://www.ynetnews.com/...

                It's looking more and more like a communication issue -- or a provocation, but not on the part of the Israelis.  They seem to have tried to contact the other boat and to cut it off without hitting it.  Per this article, "collision" looks like the appropriate word, not "attack."

                In light of the additional facts coming out about the incident, I have to say that some of the reactions to the initial story are appearing to be exactly what I said they were -- hyped up overreactions based on very little information.

                That's really too bad.  It's shit like this that makes rational discussion pretty much impossible.

                Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. Now shut the fuck up and stay there. Also.

                by Kaili Joy Gray on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:30:00 AM PST

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                •  yep (0+ / 0-)

                  as I have said earlier - my concern is the possible illegal interdiction of humanitarian aid. The fired upon stuff is just hyperbole. Do not however all the changes in the IDF and IFM stories as to the circumstances.They're making it up as they go as well.

                  "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                  by SteveP on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:50:19 AM PST

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                  •  Not sure I follow you... (0+ / 0-)

                    I think I've only seen two quotes from the Israelis on this, and they've been consistent.

                    For that matter, the Free Gaza group has been consistent too in insisting on its version, but the CNN reporter on the boat doesn't seem to agree with the FreeGaza version, and after looking at the FreeGaza website and how its trying to play this, they have no credibility with me.

                    But I get the sense that this was intended, from the start, to be a publicity stunt.  After all, McKinney made a pretty big deal about it before she even got there.  I suspect that this went down exactly as they knew (and hoped) it would.

                    I'm just glad no one was hurt.

                    Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. Now shut the fuck up and stay there. Also.

                    by Kaili Joy Gray on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:55:33 AM PST

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                    •  two versions (0+ / 0-)

                      first - they nudged the ship and then had already escorted it back to cypriot waters.  They had identified the boat and knew it to be pro-palestinian.

                      second - They were staying away from the boat when the boat drifted into them.  They stopped following the boat when it turned around.  They thought they were terrorists.

                      Two fundamentally different accounts from the IDF.

                      As for the Free Gaza, their 'reports' are pretty clearly just accounts of what they are hearing from the boats, kind of like the haaretz article reporting what the IDF said to them (first) - evidently incorrectly since subsequently the IDF came out with another version (second).

                      "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                      by SteveP on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 10:01:47 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

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