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View Diary: Latter-Day Protest? Proposition 8 and Sports (87 comments)

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  •  Chino, you are a treasure! (11+ / 0-)

    There it is, again, in (cough) black and white.

    The LDS seems to have these "revelations" when it comes down to MONEY!

    Polygamy?  Renounced in order to gain statehood (and all that MONEY!).

    Blacks inferior?  Renounced in order to regain athletic competition for BYU (and all that MONEY!).

    Now, how do we get more "revelations" in terms of women and gays in the LDS?

    Make it a MONEY! issue.

    If we're not willing to boldly refute the lies, the lies will stand as truth. (-6.75, -6.72)

    by cn4st4datrees on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 07:22:45 AM PST

    •  Very little cash to be had for (0+ / 0-)

      athletic competition.  Plus, no one in the church gets paid money, so I don't know what the incentive money would be (other than expanding the church).  As far as polygamy goes, they banned that initially to comply with the law, which is a huge part of the doctrine of the church.

      Why would you make Prop 8/Mormon Church a MONEY issue?  Are you pulling that out of the air just to hit them over the head with?  The only problem with that is it's not reality, and this is a reality based community.  If it was about money, they wouldn't have spent huge amounts of cash for prop 8.  Stick to the facts instead of false outrage.

      As someone in the church, this kind of thing hurts your cause.  There are many within the church that have sympathies towards the constitutionality of prop 8.  You want these people on your side.  They are the ones that can do the most to change hearts and minds within the church.  Seeing charges of 'the church did prop 8 for the dollas' is not only absurd, but depressing.  It gives them a reason to fight back, and the last thing GLBT wants is a backlash that the public sympathizes with.  It could very well set equal rights for gays back another decade.  Stick to the facts.

      •  No apologist's post is complete without (7+ / 0-)

        This catchphrase: "You're hurting your cause!"

        I call concern troll.

        Wake me if he actually repeals DOMA, revokes DADT or passes ENDA.

        by Scott Wooledge on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 08:38:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  the lds church is all about money (4+ / 0-)

        all those tithes go into a corporation.  get real.  

        "Gloom we always have with us . . . but joy requires tending." Barbara Holland

        by jlms qkw on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 08:44:18 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Which corp? Link please? (0+ / 0-)

          Please tell me who is profiting off the tithes other than the mission of the church (expansion and conversion)?  The charge was that the church was doing prop 8 for the money.  Please provide some proof of prop 8 for enrichment of a single person, persons, or corporation (which helps to enrich a CEO, CFO, etc.).

          •  They have two corporations (6+ / 0-)

            (maybe more, now) The corporation of the Presidency of the church and a holding company The Deseret. . .something (I don't recall now)that holds their stock interests in Airlines, Coca Cola, and numerous other businesses.  The holding company also owned businesses out right until most of them were divested in the late 70's or 80's.  Google will no doubt help you with more specifics and the corporations legal papers are public at the state capital.

            The church also owns almost all of the real estate of downtown Salt Lake City. . .not to mention numerous real estate holdings in many other states.

            They are very much into the money, and you can easily search it out.  It is very revealing.  

            *the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

            by Shirl In Idaho on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 10:02:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Why is it a 'money' issue? (4+ / 0-)

        Where do you think that 8+ million dollars the LDS contributed to prop 8 came from?

        The facts are there.

        When LDS folks decide to put their money up against the human rights of any group, they can expect a backlash.  No, they DESERVE a backlash.

        Many Americans see this now.  Exposure of what the LDS did in this case is the best weapon against such power grabs of bigotry in the future.

        The person who has lost the ability to trust based on the actions of the party no longer trusted is not the one who has to do the work for restoration.

        by emsprater on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 08:56:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Individual Mormons don't deserve to be trashed. (0+ / 0-)

          Many are actually on your side, like myself.  My only point was to stick to the topic instead of going off into tangents.  That dilutes the goal at hand (equal rights for GBLT).  Claiming the church did prop 8 to make someone rich is an absurd claim, and pulls attention away from the cause.

          Instead of talking about how to get those rights restored, most of the talk on Daily Kos has been charges of church greed, magic undies, and crazy Mormon customs, much of which gets right up to the line of reverse bigotry.  Why not focus the anger and energy on the purpose at hand?  Reaching out to people and trying to change their minds through kindness and reason works much better than starting a war.  What will screaming 'magic undies' do to help restore GBLT rights?  I can't believe I'm having to defend that here, and I'm on your side.

          •  Money? (4+ / 0-)

            Claiming the church did prop 8 to make someone rich is an absurd claim, and pulls attention away from the cause.

            Okay, you've repeated this about six times.  Can you show me where the diarist (or someone else) claims that the LDS church "did prop 8 to make someone rich"?  The diarist makes the point that members of the LDS church contributed a huge chunk of the funds used to finance Prop. 8.  That assertion is factually accurate.

            Please stop creating these ridiculous straw men just so that you can knock them down.  It's easy to defeat arguments that the diarist hasn't made.  Why don't you try addressing the diarist's actual contentions rather than simply making stuff up?

          •  I realize you are ... (5+ / 0-)

            a hard core believer in the LDS, so I have to take you at your word that you are 'on our side'.   Not every individual member is being 'trashed', but sometimes it is imperative to work to remove what is in effect a cancerous portion of your own faith.
            That's why my family no longer handles snakes as their ancestors did as a show of 'faith'.  If someone were to preach or teach such stupidity in my church today, they would be dismissed quite quickly.  Have you dismissed or worked to dismiss the anti gay teachings of your church?

            In regards to all religious organizations, history has shown throughout the ages that 'money' is 'power' and 'power' is 'money'.  Much of religiosity has been aimed at controlling human nature in such a way as to 'give' an elite control over the masses. That 'control' goes back to the 'power is money' fact.

            Prop 8  gave the LDS a 'magic' fund raising tool.  Do we know how much was raised by their actions for this purpose?  Is it possible (and many of us believe it is) that they raised far more than the 8+ million that they spent to legislate the bigotry of their followers into laws on people not even affiliated with their faith?

            I'm pretty tired of this whole 'reaching out' theme.  It's bogus.  In order to 'reach out', their has to be a hand extended form both sides.  GLBT folks didn't get a 'hand' from the LDS, they got a slap and a middle finger salute.

            Screaming 'magic undies' seems odd to you, but if it exposes the basic stupidity of some of the ideology of a group that worked so hard to oppress other human beings based on such beliefs, then we should scream 'magic undies, golden tablets, polygamists and arranged under age marriages' all at the top of our lungs.  Now given that some of those things aren't part and parcel to modern day LDS, they still are a part of the basic foundation of a faith that strives so hard to control others and deny their basic human rights and dignity.  Millions of Americans hold the belief that those same basic 'beliefs' of the past of your church are all the truth they need to view your church as a 'cult'.  I seriously doubt we will make more enemies of those folks by highlighting the sins of the church.

            The person who has lost the ability to trust based on the actions of the party no longer trusted is not the one who has to do the work for restoration.

            by emsprater on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 10:08:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I he's truly "on our side" (3+ / 0-)

              Why the repeated references to YOUR cause?

              Wake me if he actually repeals DOMA, revokes DADT or passes ENDA.

              by Scott Wooledge on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 10:36:44 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I guess .... (3+ / 0-)

                my 'cause' for human rights and equality don't match up with his 'cause' of defending the LDS .

                The person who has lost the ability to trust based on the actions of the party no longer trusted is not the one who has to do the work for restoration.

                by emsprater on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 10:39:50 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I am also suspicious of where someone's (4+ / 0-)

                  True sympathies lie when they post 20,000 words of excuse making and decrying the (faux) victimhood of the LDS but concede not a word of culpabilty on the church's part.  

                  Wake me if he actually repeals DOMA, revokes DADT or passes ENDA.

                  by Scott Wooledge on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 10:57:33 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Show me once where I failed to concede. (0+ / 0-)

                    That is a flat out falsehood, Clark.  The church was wrong to support prop 8.  How many times must I say it in one day for it to sink in?  Do I need to tape it to my forehead?  I've said that over and over in most of my responses to this diary.

                    •  What you need to do is listen (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      emsprater

                      I hear you dispassionately saying that the Mormon Church "was wrong to support Prop 8." But the only passion you display is the hurt & anger you claim at Mormons being judged bad people. Mormons have been demonstrated themselves to be bad people; they have joined together in a criminal conspiracy to strip people of protection of the law. This is bad. This is bad behavior. It is the thing a bad person would do. Thus, Mormons are bad people.

                      You throw Martin Luther King's words at us, you throw the Dalai Lama's words at us. Very nice. Yet you do not take your own advice. You repeatedly use inflammatory, unfair, degrading language to attack gay people -- bigots! hatemongers! This does nothing to demonstrate your moral worth.

                      Yes, you need to tape to your forehead the following: I WILL EMBODY THE ADVICE I GIVE OTHERS.

                      Write it backwards so you can read it in the mirror.

                      •  LuvSet, (0+ / 0-)

                        don't you see what you've allowed yourself to do?  You've allowed yourself to hate.  You've allowed yourself to become far too judgmental of others.  I know many LDS folks, and they are not 'bad' people.  Some are naive and uneducated towards gay people, but they are nowhere near 'bad' people.  LuvSet, hate and intolerance will get you no where.  

                        Gay people are not bigots and hatemongers.  I've never said that.  Now, if someone is bashing someones religious beliefs in the exact manner the Klan would bash someone's race, that person is a bigot.  Just because a handful of gay people within the gay community are bigots, racist, hatemongers, etc (every segment of society is not immune), doesn't mean calling one out is wrong.  You just labeled every Mormon as "bad people".  That is bigotry.  That is hate.  That is intolerance.  Especially when you're talking to someone whom is very much for gay rights, and actively fighting for said rights (as well as many other Mormons).  

                        I've allowed my gay (married) next door neighbor (my best friend on this earth) read this diary, and my responses just to make sure I was being fair.  You don't want to know what they said about your attitude, and a couple others above.  Let's just say you do not come close to representing the peaceful gay community, and am told a few here have a lot of growing up to do.  They agree people like you are ruining the chances of gay rights.  Now, That was coming from them, not me.  If you'd like to call them, let me know so I can find a way to pass their number on to you.  They can't believe the level of hate that is written in this thread.

                        Peace.

                        •  alpraz, you are spitting mad (0+ / 0-)

                          and your spit is getting in my eye.

                          The only thing you are spitting mad about is the way your poor religion is being maligned.

                          You don't evince a thimbleful of anger for the way the Mormon Church has treated gay people.

                          You lecture, you fume, you screech, you fail to listen.

                          I hear your anger. You are not the least bit interested in hearing mine. This is OK with you because your position has no consequences for you. You can safely confide in all these supposed gay friends who will soothe your brow and sussurate sweet nothings into your ear about how right you are, your pet gay friends, but you are not interested in engaging with gay people who do not agree with you, who find your pettiness and anger over "bigotry" -- a bigotry that mainly exists in your imagination but seems to hold the power to wound you deeply -- exasperating and insulting.

                          If you represent the "peaceful" religious community it is a community deeply insecure and certain that the world is out to get it -- a position with so little evidence it can only be called delusional. But the vote to "protect marriage" in California was based on delusion -- and lies -- so I am not surprised.

                          Give my best to your best friend. If he or she wants to contact me my contact info is available on my diary page.

                •  I'm not defending them emsprater. (0+ / 0-)

                  It is right to go after the church for contributing so much for prop 8.  Can we agree that there's a line that shouldn't crossed?  At what point does our anger become our own enemy.

                  In my opinion, that line is crossed by going off into tangents and belittling Mormons for beliefs which have nothing to do with Prop 8 and the money spent to pass it.  It's not just my faith that I'd be concerned with, it's anyone else's faith.  If it was the Catholics that contributed so much to Prop 8, what good would it do us to make fun of Catholics for beliefs they hold sacred like communion, rosary beads, or confession?  

                  I'm not worried about my feelings being hurt.  I'm far more worried about gaining rights for everyone effectively.  Beating up on Mormons, and other religions for things that have nothing to do with Prop 8 is counter productive.  That is not how we educate people, and change hearts.  

                  Sometimes a little constructive criticism is a good thing.  There are quite a few people that don't like it (as you can see in the comments), but it's needed.  Bigotry, hate, and disrespect is counter productive in fighting against bigotry, hate, and disrespect.

                  •  a little constructive criticism is a good thing (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    emsprater

                    I'm not worried about my feelings being hurt.  I'm far more worried about gaining rights for everyone effectively.  Beating up on Mormons, and other religions for things that have nothing to do with Prop 8 is counter productive.  That is not how we educate people, and change hearts.  

                    Again and again you invoke the specter of "bigotry, hate, and disrespect." Please get a sense of perspective. There is no threat to Mormon families; no ballot measure is being prepared to strip them of the protection of the law. At what point do you acknowledge not that the Church "was wrong to support" but that the Church did a very bad thing. The Church did a very bad thing, by the way.

                    Repeatedly you insist we are not doing the right things to "educate people, and change hearts". I look forward to the diary you post laying out concrete steps you will be taking to educate people and change their hearts. If what you do is inspiring, your example will be emulated.

              •  Ahh, so I can't help GLBT unless I'm GBLT? (0+ / 0-)

                Shouldn't we accept help from anyone willing to listen?  Did women gain rights by excluding men from helping in there "cause"?  C'mon Clark, read my posts.  My intent is pretty damn obvious.  Do you really think I'd spend so much of my time to be some imposter?  Agree or disagree with my advice, and feel free to debate where you think I'm nuts, but can you at least show some respect for someone who does care about everyday rights of fellow humans?  I might not be 'pure', but why not take what you can get?

                •  your intent is muddled at best (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LuvSet, emsprater, rontun

                  while you state that you do not agree with the LDS stance against prop 8, have you spoken up about your anger at your church for doing so yet?  at family functions?  and services?  are you a vocal opponent to your church's excommunication of LGBT mormons from the fold?

                  you state your support but then temper that support with the admonition for us to not trash your church.

                  your church lied to millions of americans, millions of my neighbors, flat out lied and bankrolled a campaign of fear and misinformation.

                  if any religious sect or institution would be familiar with campaigns aimed at them based on fear and innuendo, the LFDS is probably the most acutely aware of the bunch.

                  but "go on, hurt me now and i'll hurt someone else when i am better" seems to be the LDS calling card.

                  your church decided to step out of its protected area and into the political arena, knowing full well what it was doing.  it colluded with the catholic church here in california.  it allowed its members to send money to fund a campaign that was factually inaccurate and fear-based.

                  when the LDS decided to take mortal form,. it should have thought through the errors of its ways before it decided to play god and piecemeal rights out based on a capricious and homophobic concept of humanity.

                  _______________

                  I only use my evil powers for good

                  -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                  by dadanation on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 03:03:08 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  so far kindness & reason (4+ / 0-)

            have failed.

            Pursue the failed strategies of the past? That's your best advice?

            Israel seems to think starting a war is far superior to kindness and reason and they sure are getting a lot of support for their position.

            Please come up with some advice that actually addresses strategies. Being nice is not cutting it. And stop being so defensive. Do you really feel threatened by angry gay people? Really?

            •  Martin Luther King... (0+ / 0-)

              "Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal."

              Dalai Lama
              "I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through the cultivation of altruism, of love and compassion, and elimination of ignorance, selfishness, and greed."

              Mother Teresa
              "I was once asked why I don't participate in anti-war demonstrations. I said that I will never do that, but as soon as you have a pro-peace rally, I'll be there."

              Buddha
              "Better than a thousand hollow words is one word that brings peace."

              I'm not threatened by angry gay people, but I fear they threaten successful achievement of constitutional rights by acting in vengeance.

              Personally, I'm going to stick with these guys advice.

              •  great! advice is free (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                davidincleveland, emsprater

                and usually worth what you pay for it.

                I notice you didn't quote a Mormon leader.

                I fear [angry gay people] threaten successful achievement of constitutional rights by acting in vengeance.

                I don't. That's not what I fear. I fear the many concrete steps the Mormon Church has made & continues to make to strip me and my family and friends of recognition under the law. The imagined threat of gay revenge (to anything! -- let alone to the "successful achievement of constitutional rights") is in your head. Get out of your head. It is a scary, unrealistic place!

                •  That's not what I said. Let me rephrase. (0+ / 0-)

                  Gays have every right to be angry.  I just hope that that anger doesn't overwhelm them to the point of hate and bigotry, both of which are counter productive.

                  Martin Luther King warned of the exact same thing.  He warned not to use hate and bigotry, and violence in the quest for equal rights.  There were segments of society just itching to use black on white violence and racism to set the equal rights agenda back another decade.  

                  If any group uses hate and bigotry to fight against hate and bigotry, it will often develop in a backlash.  That is what I'm warning against.  

                  I don't think I need to say much more about this, as it's so blatantly obvious what I'm saying.  I want GBLTs to have to same rights as everyone else, and I don't want that to be set back from an overreach of anger.  Take care.  I'm done for today.

                  •  The members of the LDS .. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    davidincleveland

                    need to learn a very old principle:  eventually, even a timid dog will bite when continually provoked.

                    The person who has lost the ability to trust based on the actions of the party no longer trusted is not the one who has to do the work for restoration.

                    by emsprater on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 12:38:53 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Do yourself a favor. Stop trying to justify your (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LuvSet, emsprater, rontun, Chino Blanco

                    church's bigotry with this:

                    Martin Luther King warned of the exact same thing.  He warned not to use hate and bigotry, and violence in the quest for equal rights.  There were segments of society just itching to use black on white violence and racism to set the equal rights agenda back another decade.

                    Every time you refer to MLK or the Buddha to ask us to turn the other cheek, so your church can kick that one too, your argument gets more ridiculous.

                    You are here saying that we should not return hate for hate. We are telling you that your church has hated on us in a very organized and official way in the political sphere, and we will shout it from the rooftops. You are here arguing because people are actually listening to us. You are telling us to STFU. Not. Going. To. Happen.

                    Your church has every right to hate us officially. It has every right to engage in politics, including sending out concerned Mormons to "talk us down" on progressive forums. I will defend to the death their right to expose their bigotry, and my right to call it what it is.

                    "Dialogue is good, sometimes even productive, but if you do not believe in equality, then you are not of this tribe." -swampus

                    by davidincleveland on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 12:51:55 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  "it's so blatantly obvious what I'm saying" (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    emsprater

                    what isn't "blatantly obvious" is the respect with which you are saying it.

                    From you I hear only the pain & anger over the attacks on the Mormon Church. Admittedly my own pain & anger are dimming the receptiveness of my ears but what I'm not hearing from you is any sympathetic pain & anger over the loss of the same rights everyone else takes for granted, a loss engineered by the Mormon Church. Is your main concern for the Mormon Church? That's what I hear from you. You "don't need to say much more about this" because you don't need to persuade anyone. That's not important to you. You just want to hop up & down and declare everybody else hatemongers & bigots.

                    You warn against the "backlash" -- yet you don't seem to have noticed the "lash", which is ongoing.

                    Take care. Don't overreach. Have a happy new year.

                  •  you confuse righteous indignation (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LuvSet, emsprater

                    with blind hatred and fury.

                    i don't.

                    you confuse them because it gives you an out.

                    i don't because it is what will win me the constitutionally-guaranteed civil right that was stripped from me in november.

                    nothing is ever gained by blind hatred and fury except more blind hatred and fury.  except in the case when blind fury and hatred are met with righteous indignation by those who have been wronged.

                    and your church acted out of blind hatred.  and i was wronged.  it is not only time now for my grievance to be redressed but time for the parties that unduly and unethically wronged me deal with the consequences of their bigotry.

                    _______________

                    I only use my evil powers for good

                    -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                    by dadanation on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 03:08:59 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  After you've rammed home the words of (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LuvSet, dadanation, emsprater, rontun

                Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa and the Buddha in the minds and hearts of your church elders, and they have repented in sackcloth and ashes, come use those words on us. Until then, you are clearly feeling threatened by us, or you wouldn't keep pleading for an understanding of the indefensible.

                Make no mistake: We are not out for vengeance. Vengeance is what people seek when nothing can cure the original wrong. We are out for victory in a war against bigotry, organized bigotry from the heads of your church, manifesting itself in the political sphere.

                The LDS officially declared war on us and financed the battle. Stop whining that their reputation is a casualty. When they put on the uniform of bigotry, and carry the fight to us, it is too late to retreat into the robes of sainthood. When the LDS officially exhorted its faithful to fund hatred against us they hoisted the Oriflamme. We won't give any quarter either.

                "Dialogue is good, sometimes even productive, but if you do not believe in equality, then you are not of this tribe." -swampus

                by davidincleveland on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 12:36:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  To be honest, reaching out is not my #1 priority (6+ / 0-)

            I didn't write this piece, that's all Dave, and I think he did a good job.

            That said, when I have managed to produce some original content, it's never been about Mormon "greed" or "magic undies" or "crazy customs" ...

            So, in terms of the "purpose at hand" ... let me lay it out plain and simple for you:

            The Mormon church is the most vertically-integrated major church in America.

            What does that mean?

            It means:  if you need to confront/persuade your Mormon opposition on a political issue, you go to the Mormon leadership, and you don't bother too much with persuading the Mormon rank and file (because, at the end of the day, the LDS membership will do as they're told, unlike most Catholics and many Evangelicals).

            Evangelicals are horizontally-structured.  They're good at raising a stink, but bad at following through with the kind of coordinated actions that GOTV requires.  Catholics are kind of a hybrid structure.  But the Mormons, well, the Mormons are all about vertical, and they take their marching orders straight from Salt Lake City and so, in terms of their organization, there's nothing in-between those orders and the rank-and-file that might dilute the call to duty.

            Don't Mormons like to describe themselves as a "peculiar people" ??  Guess what, they're right.  They're peculiarly adapted to deliver an outsized impact on elections that they've been instructed to take an interest in.

            Guess what state ranks 49th in voter turnout?  Utah.

            But outside Utah, it's a different story entirely.

            Ohio 2004?  50% of the poll monitors were Mormon.

            Prop 8 in 2008?  Ditto, ditto, ditto.

            It's basic GOTV.  Get your people to the polls checking the lists for your 1's and 2's and get the job done.  They did.  To their credit.  We didn't.  Our bad.  It's not gonna happen again.

            •  Chino, if that is the case... (0+ / 0-)

              why am I still a member of my church.  Shouldn't they have cast me out by now for my beliefs of prop 8?  How about the rest of my family?  How are we allowed to teach Sunday school or be in the bishopric?  You know who Steve Young is, right?  If not, Google his name and read up on his story regarding Prop 8.  Why did the Church leadership say that many in the church may not agree, and will rightfully choose not to participate in prop 8?  Many of us in the Church are either neutral, or opposed to prop 8, but the media has told you that all Mormons are against rights for gays.  

              You are making a terrible mistake ignoring the membership.  This is an education issue.  You don't have to persuade Mormons and other religious people to accept that homosexuality is natural.  You don't have to pull people away from their beliefs.  It is an essential teaching in the church that the constitution is an inspired document.  Prop 8 in my opinion violates the constitutional rights of GBLTs.  That fact alone is enough to get people on your side.  Education is key.  

              I ask you though, what good will (as some here have suggested) bashing people's faith do to get those of faith to come around?  It'll just make them even more devout in their views.  It's a dead end.

              •  You claim to be a friend. Why are you here, (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                emsprater, rontun, Chino Blanco

                lecturing us, instead of lecturing your errant co-worshippers? You claim that many Mormons disagreed with their leadership over prop h8. Naturally you all picketed, marched in solidarity with us, carried signs saying "Mormons against hate and exclusion," or "Mormons for universal civil rights." Doubtless, there were letters to the editor stating your vigorous opposition to prop h8.

                Yes.. I remember the scenes on TV, the talking heads chattering about a split between the LDS flock and its leaders.. It's all coming back to me..

                "Dialogue is good, sometimes even productive, but if you do not believe in equality, then you are not of this tribe." -swampus

                by davidincleveland on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 01:03:14 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  You're kidding me about Steve Young, right? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                emsprater

                Barb did her darndest to educate Mormons before Nov. 4th:

                And what did she get for it?  Shunned in her Palo Alto ward, that's what she got.

          •  Don't Need Your Help Alpraz. There Are Enough (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LuvSet, davidincleveland, Clarknt67

            goodwilled people outside the bigoted Mormon Church that will help set a new direction for Mormons.  Mormons historically have not been able to police their own bigotry, it has to be done from outside the haven of bigotry and discrimination that is rampant in the Mormon church.  You are simply enabling it and then come here and loudly claim you are not a bigot.  Bigots are the last to know they are bigots.

            •  Actually, in the end ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              davidincleveland

              we may need his 'help'.

              However, that does not mean we have to contort ourselves into becoming what he or his faith wants us to be in order to receive it, nor do we have to 'take it on the chin' from the organized discrimination put forth in public policy by his church.

              If he can change his faith into being less oppressive on other 's civil rights, so be it.  But he's not going to accomplish that by kowtowing and excusing their bigotry.

              The person who has lost the ability to trust based on the actions of the party no longer trusted is not the one who has to do the work for restoration.

              by emsprater on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 11:09:26 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Mormons are welcome to do that (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                davidincleveland, emsprater

                Because their sense of right and wrong compels them to. Not because I groveled and repeatedly stroked their tiny egos that I understand, "They're not really like that."

                Wake me if he actually repeals DOMA, revokes DADT or passes ENDA.

                by Scott Wooledge on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 11:28:39 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Emsprater, I'm not excusing bigotry. (0+ / 0-)

                Let's be fair.  I've said over and over that the church was wrong on prop 8.  I don't expect you to take it on the chin.  I expect you to fight back.

                All I'm saying is fight back in a smart way.

                Glad to help out.  There are people in my church on the fence, and you get those people off the fence with reason and dialogue, not belittling.  I appreciate that you've been fair, even with the hits that have been taken to the GBLT community.  

                •  Yes, let's be 'fair'. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LuvSet

                  You've danced around saying prop 8 was 'wrong', until you were forced to say it outright.  I'll give you that statement.

                  However, you've also vehemently accused any effort by those oppressed by the political actions of the church of LDS to voice their protestations in terms that denounce faith based political action as 'bigotry'.

                  Now what exactly is fair about that?

                  When any one faith, or even a group of faiths take over the political agenda of the Nation, we loose.  Men who were wise beyond their years before Smith stumbled on your religion in the desert strongly stood for that as a basis for our Nation's structure.

                  Upholding those basic beliefs that 'all men (and now women too) are created equal' and that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.' is fair.  Your leaders seem to have failed in that respect.

                  The person who has lost the ability to trust based on the actions of the party no longer trusted is not the one who has to do the work for restoration.

                  by emsprater on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 12:52:34 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I'm glad you said it. I wanted to but bit my (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              davidincleveland, emsprater
              tongue. Any good-willed Mormons who want to do the right thing and write their Elders and tell them to straighten out their Church priorities are appreciated.

              But I have no desire to extend any hand of making nice with theocrats.

              Wake me if he actually repeals DOMA, revokes DADT or passes ENDA.

              by Scott Wooledge on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 11:22:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  I don't really understand what you mean by this: (4+ / 0-)

        Very little cash to be had for athletic competition.

        Football is about the biggest moneymaking program Universities have:

        Top College Football Revenues 2007
        Texas $60.9 million
        Ohio State $60.8 million
        Georgia $58.7 million
        Michigan $50.4 million
        Florida $48.2 million

        Whether a boycott or protest would have any effect, is an entirely different subject.

        Wake me if he actually repeals DOMA, revokes DADT or passes ENDA.

        by Scott Wooledge on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 08:59:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why are we making it a MONEY issue? (6+ / 0-)

        Well, maybe because the LDS Church raised 20+ million dollars to pass Prop H8? And maybe because they failed to report "in kind" donations in direct violation of California law? And maybe because the California SOS is looking into those "in kind" donation violations? And maybe because a lot of Mormons who donated to the Yes on H8 campaign have suddenly found themselves the target of protest & boycott? And finally, if the California Supreme Court strikes down H8, all the above factors combined with a piss-poor economy means that the LDS Church & the Catholic Church will NOT be able to raise the MONEY necessary to pass it again with the higher bar of Revision as opposed to Amendment.

        The only "freedom in Christ" for a follower of Rick Warren is the freedom to be a Good German.

        by The Werewolf Prophet on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 09:00:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Just a bit of a correction (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LuvSet, davidincleveland, emsprater

        It is not accurate that no one in the LDS church is paid.  The "general Authorities" are paid an annual salary.

        And just as a side note, I wonder how many in the church are aware that the Presidency of the church is incorporated and the president has sole discretion of how and when to spend its billions of dollars.  I know it is not common knowledge among members.  I know when I was growing up in the church we did all of that presumed democratic voting on things and we certainly believed that our votes counted.  When I discovered the incorporation, not of the church as is most common, but of the Presidency, I was very dismayed at the implications that it presented.

        Anyone can search out and read the incorporation papers as they are public instruments.  But questioning the common beliefs and wisdom is really not encouraged by the church.

        These are just my personal experiences and I do not
        have any animosity towards those who have different ones.  In fact my younger brother is a Bishop in Southern California.

        We each choose our own path in this life.  Mine parted ways with the church many years ago and I am happy with that choice.  Others choose as they do and I would never denigrate another's choice.

        JMO, yours may certainly differ.

        *the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

        by Shirl In Idaho on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 09:56:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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