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View Diary: Union Elections are Not Like Our Political Elections. (65 comments)

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  •  You don't believe a business owner (3+ / 0-)

    should have the "upper hand" in how his/her business operates?

    •  no problem with that (7+ / 0-)

      but the people a business owner employees need to have the free choice to decide if they want to negotiate collectively with the owner.  not mutually exclusive.

      •  And look at businesses who've worked WITH (6+ / 0-)

        unions, like H&M in Manhattan, for example. They took control of their business and made a great decision when they basically said, "Hey, if our employees want a union, then we're going to work WITH the union and our employees to get the best possible deal for all involved." Same with lots of other companies who've done very well for themselves and their employees by working with them, and not against them and the union they've chosen to represent them.

      •  Yes, workers should be able (0+ / 0-)

        to negotiate collectively.  Business owners should have the ability to simply say no to their demands if he/she doesn't like them.  Workers should have the ability to strike.  Business owners should have the ability to fire people who strike.

        •  so what youre saying is, (5+ / 0-)

          workers should have the free choice to do what they want, but businesses can feel free to ignore and then fire them.

          which is the status quo.  and it's wrong.

        •  Right to fire workers if they strike? (4+ / 0-)

          Then what's the point of having the right to strike?

          That's no better that saying workers have the right to send a "sternly-worded letter", and then get their asses back to work, or else!

          Or else what?  Or else we'll throw your butts out on the street, call in the police with fire hoses and dogs to keep you out and terrorized, and then we can offer jobs, jobs, jobs at even less than you were making.  After all, there's plenty of unemployed out there.  And when they unionize and go on strike, we'll just do it all over again, until finally we get a workforce who'll pay us just for the privilege of working.

          A dog can't purr, and a cat can't fetch.

          by cn4st4datrees on Thu Jan 08, 2009 at 09:22:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  reductio ad absurdum (1+ / 0-)
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            After all, there's plenty of unemployed out there.  And when they unionize and go on strike, we'll just do it all over again, until finally we get a workforce who'll pay us just for the privilege of working.

            Congratulations, that strawman never stood a chance!


          •  What is wrong with a business owner (1+ / 0-)
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            hiring and firing as they please?  Afterall, it is their business, not yours.  If you don't like the working conditions, you can always quit.  You can get a different job or you could even start your own business.  Leeching off of someone else's success is weak.  Demanding things that aren't giving to you by choice should be illegal.  Forcing a business owner to go out of business because you don't like the rate he pays you is nuts.

            •  Write a bill that outlaws unions, then. (1+ / 0-)
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              We live in a country where human beings have fought and died for the right to negotiate the terms of how they sell their labor to employers. If you think that right should be taken away, by all means, introduce a bill. I promise to help defeat it.

              •  we already have (0+ / 0-)

                now we're talking about YOUR bill that wants to change the balance of power.

              •  I opened my own business (0+ / 0-)

                and I did it for profit.  I took a serious risk and invested my families savings plus took out a serious amount of debt.  Labor is just like any other input to me.  I need nuts and bolts like I need labor.  They all have a cost involved.  I don't over pay for nuts and bolts.  Why should I overpay for labor?

                I employ 23 people.  8 have been with me for over 10 years.  5 have been with me for 6 years.

                I don't price workers.  I put a value on the job I need done.  You are certainly free to value yourself more then the job pays (and you may be worth more then the job pays).  The problem with your arguement is that labor is only worth what it takes to hire and retain workers for the job you need done.

                Unions don't have to be bad.  If they focus on making sure workplace environments don't descriminate and are safe, I have no problem with them.  When they demand that I pay labor more then the job is worth, I have a serious problem.

                If you don't like it, find a different job.  Hell, take a risk like I did and build your on corporation.  Don't expect to make a mint simply showing up for work on time and working hard.  Hard work is expected.  The difference is that you didn't take the risk, I DID.

            •  lucius, they feel entitled (1+ / 0-)
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              to those profits. And no amount of logic will convince them otherwise.

              What they never want to understand is that risk equals reward. They will never share in the reward, because they refuse to take the risks.

              They feel entitled to what you have, because that's what they think equality means.

      •  Is there free choice when everyone (1+ / 0-)
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        knows how you voted?  I'd vote union everytime.  But I sure as hell would hate some guy watching me to make sure I do.  

        I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat. Will Rogers

        by thestructureguy on Thu Jan 08, 2009 at 09:22:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  what does a union have to do with that? (5+ / 0-)

      Seriously, tell us what a union has to do with how a business operates. I'm curious.

      •  union troll (0+ / 1-)
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        Hidden by:

        The answer to your question is so blindingly obvious that I have to assume that it is a piss-poor attempt at trolling.

        •  the lady doth protest too much, methinks. (2+ / 0-)
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          Dirtandiron, chrome327

          I'm trying to advance the discussion by asking those who disagree with this diary to explain what a union has to do with how a business is run. I've worked for businesses where we workers had unions and without them, and I actually can not see the connection you say is "blindingly obvious." Sorry if the question upsets you, but it stands.

          •  collectivism vs individualism (0+ / 0-)

            Well, from the business owner's perspective, a union severely curtails his ability to fire workers as needed, either for disciplinary or economic reasons. It completely changes the pay structure and incentives that employees receive.

            Basically, a union adds a layer of outside bureaucracy to the business, which impairs the business owner's ability to control his own property.

            (I'm not suggesting that workers are property, I'm referring to the business itself)

    •  When it comes to workers organizing... (3+ / 0-)
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      Dirtandiron, unionmaidn, chrome327

      ...I will say outright, no he/she should not.

      The National Labor Relations Act was passed with the explicit purpose of making it easier for workers to organize for mutual aid and protection.

      If workers want to organize, that is their decision.  If a majority of the workers explictly declare that they want a union to be their bargaining representative, then that's their decision.

      If workers want to verify that through a secret ballot, fine.  What we have now is different, it is the employer who has the right to the secret ballot.

      And there is no reason for that.  Workers can decide how they wish to express their support for organizing.  Under EFCA, they retain the right to a secret ballot.

      It's just that a secret ballot is held at the request of the workers, not the employer.

      If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President-Elect Barack Obama

      by JPhurst on Thu Jan 08, 2009 at 10:19:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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