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View Diary: S/T Diary - War in Ceylon (173 comments)

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  •  Baloney to your #1. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    conchita

    The people for which I/P fits neatly and erroneously into pre-conceived notions are overwhelmingly right-wingers, some of whom are you automatically defend. Most people on the left are aware of the  complexities of the I/P situation, just like they are here. Most people on the left know that neither side is completely good or completely evil, just like in the S/T war. Most people on the left may reach the wrong conclusions, but at least they start from the facts to get to the conclusions, not the other way around like your friends on the right.  

    The knee-jerk left exists: it is maybe 1/4 of the left. The knee-jerk right is 99% of the right. (the rest is bush's elite)

    Also, watch out, because your side of the debate has a the majority of the  bigots, who think Israel should be a place only for Jews, so that it can someday be the only place for Jews. In the short run, they may provide some support for the worst policies, but I wouldn't get too attached to them.

    Other than that, I agree.

    •  huh? (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shpilk, dufffbeer, dconrad, MizC, Jampacked

      Knee-jerk right wingers are not on my "side".  In any case, they don't hang out here (!), so whatever their opinion is, they are not at all relevant to the question I was attempting to answer.

      We are not, in this thread, addressing the issue of knee-jerk right wingers.  I could write a whole book on that, but they are not relevant to my comment.

      But if we take your assertion that maybe 1/4 of the left is knee-jerk, that's like 50,000 users here at DKos!  That's plenty to sustain the level of interest in I-P stuff that we see.  

      I think you have more than made the case for my #1.

      All this wasted time learning and acquiring skills... And all along I should have just squinted to see Russia

      by fizziks on Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 10:10:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nice job smearing Kossacks - twice in a row! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        edtastic

        In your previous post, you conflated dKos commenters with the knee-jerk fringe of the left. Now you do it again!

        Through self-selection and mutual informal policing, Kossacks have always been much less knee-jerk than the left's average, which is already very low for a group of people pretty radical in their views. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, when I said "maybe" and gave you the highest remotely plausible number, but you just had to show your true colors.

        Right-wingers do hang out here. They fear the intervention of the community, however, which is why they mostly try to make right-wing points when they think it is safe to do so, like on I/P. They are mistaken, as with everything else on which they disagree with the left.

        •  "true colors"? (5+ / 0-)

          Oh, golly. There's no need to "smear Kossacks" in order to spot some knee-jerking around here. It's probably futile to speculate about the proportions.

          •  The problem isn't so much the 'knee-jerk', it's (0+ / 0-)

            the 'preconceived notions' crap.

            The difference between the radical left and the bigoted right boils down to this: the former starts with facts and reaches conclusions, generally right, sometimes wrong. The latter starts with conclusions and cherry-picks facts so as to not disturb the preordained conclusions.

            Who says that opinions that we arrived to through reasoning should be defended less passionately than those beliefs which are hard-wired into the primitive part of the brain? If it sounds like knee-jerk, so be it.

            •  sorry, too pat for me (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fizziks

              I'm not interested in generalizing about "the radical left." But I've encountered some opinions here that don't seem especially rational to me, and their adherents often haven't seemed amenable to rational discussion. If you think that the "bigoted right" has a monopoly on cherry-picking, I have to wonder if you're paying attention.

        •  Kossack on Kossack crime (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Peace JD, WIds, Justanothernyer, edtastic

          it's a tragedy.

          we must come up with a just solution to the K/K conflict now!

          Okay, if there's no god, then who changes the water? --One goldfish to another

          by s choir on Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 10:29:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Dailykos has plenty of knee jerking (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          shpilk, dufffbeer

          and I've participated in it at times. Holier than thou arguments are silly when human nature dictates that we tend to overreact to things that we care about.

          •  I agree with that! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jampacked

            But the initial comment wasn't that there is a lot of knee jerking and holier-than-thou, and that's why discussions of hot topics turn into fights. That would have been legitimate, and I do agree with that, although if anything Kos is better than the average online political community, even on the left.

            No! he tried to make knee-jerking the defining label only of a certain group, which is the group he disagrees with on this site, and happens to be the most leftist group. Then he tries to say that the reason I/P gets a lot of attention on Kos is because the site is full of knee-jerk leftists (who of course are on the opposite side of the debate from him). That's the bullshit I called him on.

            •  I'm not sure if you "called" me on it (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              shpilk

              I'm sticking by what I said, which is that a lot of the people who post on this issue hold knee-jerk viewponts, and since this is a lefty site, the people who have knee-jerk viewpoiints here have the 'lefty' knee jerk viewpoint... which makes them see Israel as solely this big horrible racist apartheid genocide sexist anti-womynist chinchilla-raping karaoke-butchering boogeyman, and Palestinians as these virtuous romantic heroic freedom fighters who they want to be massively impregnated by.  There is no nuance or perspective to these opinions and discussions.

              You in particular may not be that way, but plenty of the people who post here about this issue are.  

              All this wasted time learning and acquiring skills... And all along I should have just squinted to see Russia

              by fizziks on Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 11:45:44 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Fine, I'll call you on it now, then. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zannie

                ...blah blah blah...since this is a lefty site, the people who have knee-jerk viewpoiints here have the 'lefty' knee jerk viewpoint... which makes them see [Israel] as solely this big horrible racist apartheid genocide sexist anti-womynist chinchilla-raping karaoke-butchering boogeyman, and [Palestinians] as these virtuous romantic heroic freedom fighters who they want to be massively impregnated by.

                ...blah blah blah...

                by fizziks on Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 11:45:44 AM PST

                I have yet to read a single comment that says that crap. But even on dKos, I read enough troll-framing of liberals that sounds like your above quote. All I have to do is replace 'Israel' with 'the US' or 'the republican party' or 'Christians'.

                •  If you haven't seen those comments (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  shpilk

                  then you aren't paying attention.

                  You realize that my faux comment was a parody of those comments and not a literal transcribing, right?

                  All this wasted time learning and acquiring skills... And all along I should have just squinted to see Russia

                  by fizziks on Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 12:49:50 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Then show me one. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zannie

                    I don't patrol this site, and I may have missed it. But it's way more likely that you are putting words in somebody else's mouth.

                    •  ok (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      shpilk, dufffbeer

                      Here is someone posting a fake quote attributed to Ben Gurion, and then a bunch of people uprating it even after it was shown to be fake:

                      http://www.dailykos.com/...

                      Next, this whole thread resulted from someone trying to claim that American style Jim Crow racism defined relations in Israel within its Jewish population.  The person first tried to claim that there was a conspiracy 50 years ago to put Sephardic Jews in the line of today's rocket fire, then switched to claiming that Ashkenazi Israelis didn't want their daughters "despoiled" by others,  The person would not back down in the face of people who actually knew something about Israeli society:

                      http://www.dailykos.com/...

                      These were just two examples of the many from recent threads I've been in here.  These people are so naive and knee-jerk as to believe anything, as long as it reflects badly on Israel, and will continue to believe as long as it conforms to their anti-Israel viewpoints.

                      All this wasted time learning and acquiring skills... And all along I should have just squinted to see Russia

                      by fizziks on Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 01:08:09 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  They have nothing whatsoever to do with your (0+ / 0-)

                        strawman. And I dare you to put them in blockquotes right here, on this thread, for all to see that.

                        •  You are just wrong (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          shpilk, dufffbeer

                          They have everything to do with my assertion that some people here knee-jerk anti-Israel viewpoints.  What more proof do you need than the examples I have provided of people who will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous, and persist in believing it, as long as it conforms to their existing prejudices?  That might as well be the definition of knee-jerk.  How are you missing that?

                          You challenged me to show examples of knee-jerk  anti-Israel sentiment, and I did.  Just admit that it's there, or you can keep digging the hole that you're in.

                          I don't mind blockquoting them, but I emphasize that it is not just the initial comments but the subsequent threads and uprates that are important.

                          So here's your blockquotes:

                          Example #1: Proven fake quote uprated even after it is revealed to be a fake by comments with links:

                          Ben Gurion, first Israeli Prime Minister 1967 (11+ / 0-)
                          "We must use terror, assasination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid Palestine of it's Arab population".

                          by BigAlinWashSt on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 02:39:14 PM EST

                          Example #2:  outrageous conspiratorial claims of 'racism' among Jews in Israel:

                          Which is, of course (2+ / 1-)
                          Why the Ashkenazim encouraged them to live there.

                          More expendable brown people in the Eastern European struggle against brown people.

                          by greenskeeper on Fri Jan 02, 2009 at 01:43:43 PM EST

                          A Bit Overconstructed (2+ / 5-)

                          At the outset, I'm sure it was viewed more innocently, more in the lines of keeping dark-skinned country cousins out in the boonies where no one will see them and well away from the bright skinned Ashkenazi daughters they might despoil in Tel Aviv.

                          by greenskeeper on Fri Jan 02, 2009 at 01:48:25 PM EST

                          Again though, I encourage people to read the entire threads.

                          All this wasted time learning and acquiring skills... And all along I should have just squinted to see Russia

                          by fizziks on Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 01:44:47 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  A parody is for humor, when it's for an agenda (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zannie

                    it's not funny, and it's called a 'strawman'.

                    •  Mine was an attempt at both (0+ / 0-)

                      The threads I link to above are not parody.  And to me the revealing thing is not just that these comments exist, but that they are getting "recommended" by lots of people.  

                      All this wasted time learning and acquiring skills... And all along I should have just squinted to see Russia

                      by fizziks on Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 01:11:12 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

    •  this is patently false (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fizziks

      "because your side of the debate has a the majority of the  bigots, who think Israel should be a place only for Jews"

      That's so wrong, it's incredible.

      The overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews reject your statement out of hand. It's a small vocal minority of religious fanatics within Israel who believe this, in Israel. You'll be hard pressed to find even within AIPAC itself that sentiment: Kahane is dead, and has been rejected by universally by the vast majority of Jews in Israel and the US.

      Your fabrication is a perfect example of the very worst bigoted knee jerk reaction of the left. It's a perfect illustration of twisting the facts to fit your own bigoted viewpoint.

      "I will always be a number." Goodbye, Number 6.

      by shpilk on Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 03:07:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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