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View Diary: An altogether unnotable invocation from Warren. (85 comments)

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  •  jesus, jesus had no place here (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Prinny Squad

    what an insult to muslims, jews etc. even though it was just a brainwashed mind speaking.

    things are not more complex than we think, they are more complex than we can think.

    by markie on Tue Jan 20, 2009 at 12:19:24 PM PST

    •  I'm Jewish, and I didn't take much offense (11+ / 0-)

      to his constant referencing of Jesus.  I thought it would have been a better invocation if it was more inclusive, but if I got offended everytime I heard someone invoke Jesus, I'd get offended quite a lot.

      •  Right there with you (6+ / 0-)

        As a Pagan, if I got upset about every Christian prayer, every reference to God or Jesus etc I'd spend my whole life being offended. Not worth it. I would love to see less religion in our politics but this is the reality we live with. Nothing wrong working to change it but getting offended by it all the time is less than productive.

      •  oh well (0+ / 0-)

        you can live a life predicated on a fantasy, it's a free country.  a country who will (and has) stumbled and fumbled as it is lead by those who partake of that fantasy. as for me, i will be here to point out your delusion

        things are not more complex than we think, they are more complex than we can think.

        by markie on Tue Jan 20, 2009 at 01:48:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ordinarily, I do take offense... (0+ / 0-)

        ...not from hearing the name invoked, but from being pulled into it or excluded by implication.

        Far from "constant referencing," Warren didn't explicitly refer to Jesus till the end -- and then only once, although with a string of variant pronunciations. If the whole prayer hadn't been so short, I might have started to wonder if perhaps he were actually going to avoid any references to Jesus at all.

        In fact, among all the references to "we" and "us," the reference to Jesus switched to an almost unheard of first person: "I humbly ask this in the name of the one..." This is actually the classiest phrasing I've ever come across. The phrases I'm more familiar with always say "we" at this point, implying that everyone nearby is either praying to Jesus, or not participating fully.

        I also note that Warren didn't use the titles Christ, Savior, etc., which may be a further attempt to keep the reference to Jesus from being a technical foul for those not Christian.

        I'm not fooled by any of this -- if anything the subtlety only sharpens my wariness of Warren. But, given that this prayer is now part of the record of this important inauguration, it's nice for it to have been so innocuous on its face -- for a traditional, "Western" prayer.

        In terms of what's right and just, he's still among the worst who could have been given the privilege. I just have to remind myself that my ethic is inclusive, which often seems weak in the short term.

        I found the manner in which he spoke the Obamas' daughters' names unaccountably unsettling, but that's relatively minor and maybe just weird.

        But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. (Thomas Jefferson)

        by Athenocles on Tue Jan 20, 2009 at 02:10:37 PM PST

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    •  they do (5+ / 0-)

      consider Jesus a great prophet, just not the Savior.
      However, I too squirmed only because it drifts into evangelical fervor.

      a nation under God, the God of us all would have been more appropriate.
      and in the middle it did not feel like an invocation at all, but a political speech.

      but the guy just makes me ill and it seemed very phony to call for inclusiveness given his beliefs.

      "Establishing lasting peace is the work of education; all politics can do is keep us out of war." Maria Montessori

      by educonfidential on Tue Jan 20, 2009 at 12:27:14 PM PST

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      •  Muslims do -- but as for Jews: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tuffy, Alec82

        you've heard the saying "two Jews, three opinions"?  There's no agreement.  Personally, I find his writings both wise and incredibly radical.  It astounds me that Christians in the U.S. can accept them, including the portly man on the podium today trying to figure out how to get himself through the eye of a needle.

        •  A great bulk of US Christians... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Seneca Doane, BYw

          ...don't really consider the teachings all that important.  The queasy, almost pagan belief that his blood covers their sins from God is sufficient.

          And I couldn't make that up if I tried.

          What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

          by Alec82 on Tue Jan 20, 2009 at 01:03:01 PM PST

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          •  It's no coincidence (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Neon Mama

            That a lot of Christianity has pagan overtones. The early Church was pretty canny about bringing in beliefs and traditions that the pagan peoples would identify with as incentive to convert. That is why, for instance, we hide eggs at Easter and hang holly and ivy at Christmas, and why many saints are re-imaged gods and goddesses.

    •  It Really Isn't (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MahFellaMerkins, Neon Mama, BYw

      All three religions are based on the old testament, and that same book tells them it is their DUTY go go out and MURDER ANYBODY who doesn't believe the same things as them.

      Why should they (or Hindus, Muslims, Atheists, etc.) take time out of their busy schedules to be offended by something so silly as this?

      If spittle & tooth=vigor & youth Bill-O & Savage won't grow any older If wishes & dreams=bitches & beams We'll all live in skyscrapers bu

      by TooFolkGR on Tue Jan 20, 2009 at 12:29:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why would it be offensive to muslims?! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TooFolkGR

      The Shape Of Things "Beware the terrible simplifiers" Jacob Burckhardt, Historian

      by notquitedelilah on Tue Jan 20, 2009 at 12:36:31 PM PST

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      •  Because Warren Said it And People Here Hate Him (0+ / 0-)

        ...as much as Warren himself hates teh gayz.

        If spittle & tooth=vigor & youth Bill-O & Savage won't grow any older If wishes & dreams=bitches & beams We'll all live in skyscrapers bu

        by TooFolkGR on Tue Jan 20, 2009 at 12:37:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps because muslims find concept of (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BYw, Mayken

        "three in one" to be good oil and foolish re: god.

        Also ---  We Americans have been brainwashed that there is such a thing as "non-denominational" prayer which would offend none.  Sorry.  Many faiths do not have a deity. So -- to whom would you pray?  The effect of public prayer is to support the concept that there is a point to speaking it -- and someone on the other end to receive the message.

        Plus -- such prayer advertizes only male single deity -- which automatically rejects plural gods, goddess, goddesses..........

        Even Jesus chided public displays of piety -- and advocated for separation of church and state (god & caesar.)

        IMHO -- we should stop the nonsense and go back to E Pluribus Unum on our cash and as our national motto from my youth -- and edit "under God" inserted into our pledge in my youth --- right back out of it.  "Establishment" of religion = promoting one as "mainstream" and the rest as nutty minority ideas to be ignored.

        Rant over.  

        De fund + de bunk = de EXIT--->>>>>

        by Neon Mama on Tue Jan 20, 2009 at 01:00:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I can see how it can offend some people, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Neon Mama

          But why Muslims?!

          I watched it with muslims, I work and live in the MidEast, and they were not offended, quite the contrary, they found it touching and inclusive.

          The Shape Of Things "Beware the terrible simplifiers" Jacob Burckhardt, Historian

          by notquitedelilah on Tue Jan 20, 2009 at 01:07:40 PM PST

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          •  I would GUESS that it was no more offensive (0+ / 0-)

            to muslims than to all the rest of the people he excluded.  No more offensive to any of them than all other clerical posturings to pray FOR us as if they somehow have a better hotline to a deity.

            May I speculate that the muslims you watched with in MidEast were not American citizens -- and therefore never expected to be "included" in this strictly American civic event? That makes his use of their name for Jesus into a sort of surprise "shout out" to muslims -- acknowledging their existance.

            The CITIZENS who are repeatedly "left behind" by such public displays -- are so used to it that it won't create a bonfires in the street event. Becoming used to divisiveness does not make it right.

            Christians should be, IMHO, offended by such meaningless mumblings done in inappropriate venues and against their own teachings to keep it real and keep it private.

             

            De fund + de bunk = de EXIT--->>>>>

            by Neon Mama on Wed Jan 21, 2009 at 08:25:06 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I thought that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Athenocles

      the most interesting moment in Warren's speech was when he referred to God as "compassionate and merciful," which is of course part of the phrase that begins Muslim prayers (at least the ones I've heard.)  Given that he recently broke bread with Muslims at an Interfaith meeting where he met with Melissa Etheridge, there is no way that he didn't know this and choose it intentionally.  I give him some credit there.  He will certainly earn enough grief for it from self-proclaimed "Christians."

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