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  •  in addition to which (6+ / 0-)

    allow me to remark that for an ethnic chauvinist it's pretty embarrassing that you don't even know anything about Jewish law! If your mother is Jewish, you're Jewish. that's it. I could emigrate to Israel and they'd have to accept me as Jewish by the law of return at any time.
    I suppose I could go on about my uncle the noted Israeli artist and my cousins who grew up on the kibbutz but people are right - this is just pathetic. If you're going to accuse someone of lying you should get at least the basic elementary facts right. Otherwise you just completely humiliate yourself in front of everyone, as you're doing now: coming off as both an intolerant bigot, an apologist for baby-killing, and an ignorant buffoon, all at the same time. I mean, if someone were just sitting around thinking "how can I imagine the worst possible human being", they couldn't do much better.

    •  Link a comment from me that suggests I don't know (0+ / 1-)
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      joehoevah

      Jewish law says if your mother is Jewish you're considered Jewish.  When did I ever deny that?

      And link a comment from me that makes me an "ethnic chauvanist".  I'm not saying Jews are better or worse than anyone else.  I'm saying you, David Graeber only identify as Jewish when bashing Israel, because you believe it helps spread your anti-Zionist propaganda.  So, what's ethnically chauvanistic about that?  

      MLK: "When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism."

      by PJ Jefferson on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 05:20:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  you denied it (0+ / 0-)

        when you said I wasn't Jewish even though my mother was

        for example:

        Now you're a Jew? I thought it was just Jewish
        blood from your mother.

        or

        You're not Jewish so why lie about it?

        If you knew my mother was Jewish, and you knew that the children of Jewish mothers are Jews, then your own statement above would have to be a lie.

        how can anything be more obvious

        as for when I do and don't identify as Jewish, how the hell would you know? That's, again, called a lie - saying things with certainty when in fact you have no idea. As it happens, I'm mainly Jewish when (a) I am with my relatives, or my girlfriends' relatives, or my parents' friends, at seders or other ceremonies, or even when burning candles for my girlfriend's grandmother with whom she was very close, or actually when I'm down south, since my girlfriend lives in North Carolina, where, unlike in New York where I grew up where often I don't even know who is and isn't Jewish, being a Jew sets one apart from others (b) when I'm around anti-Semites, at which point I become very aggressively Jewish, and (c) when abstract politician questions regarding Judaism or Israel crop up.
        Incidentally, I'm not really anti-Israeli in the sense of being against the Zionist project. In fact, I've always felt a certain connection with Israel, which is after all where a number of my close relatives grew up. What I am, very decidedly, is angry as hell as what has happened to the Israeli political class, and to Israeli politics in general. I find many of my political roots in the left-wing of people like Martin Buber, who held that the real test of Zionism as an ethical project was how well Jews in Palestine got along with its Arab inhabitants. My family was always part of Hashomer Hatzair, a radical left-wing Zionist movement, and many of my relatives grew up on a Hashomer Hatzair kibbutz. Since you know very little, evidently, about Israeli history, you cannot have any way of imagining how pissed off left-wing Zionists felt at seeing the political descendants of Jabotinsky - and out-and-out fascist who would have been happy to ally with Hitler had he had the opportunity - people like Begun and Shamir, right-wing terrorists - take over, align with the religious crazies, and turn what had begun as an idealistic, utopian project into one based on apartheid and permanent war over people they defined as racially inferior.  
        There's another thing I'm going to say, just in case you actually have a heart in there somewhere, which actually I suspect is likely - you're just kind of sloppy and quick to anger is my suspicion. My grandparents, despite all their sympathy with left-wing politics, were ultimately completely unwilling to accept their daughter, who they had previously doted on, marrying a goy. When she did, they declared her dead - they did the funeral ceremony and everything - and forbade any of her three sisters to speak to her. Now, Tova, her youngest sister, always did keep in touch, but her two older ones kept to that for many years, and my grandmother never gave up at all. I grew up in Manhattan, my grandmother lived in Brooklyn and died when I was 12, but I never met her. Being rejected by her family tore my mother apart. She never really got over it. My father, who as I note had a profound distaste for Christianity, never formally converted to Judaism, but he compensated for his guilt for being the excuse for my mom's family rejecting her by becoming in many ways more Jewish than anyone, and an ardent Zionist. So much so that I grew up a rather blind supporter of Israeli policy myself, until my eyes were opened up - just as my girlfriend, herself, was, until her eyes were opened up by running away as a teenager to go to live on a kibbutz when she was 17 (but that's another story.)
        So, really: could you please give a little thought for what it means to throw around this "you're not Jewish!" nonsense. I'm sure it would never occur to you to think about it, since you clearly don't think terribly hard when you get angry and you seem to get angry very easily. But this kind of thing leads to terrible, terrible results, and, often awful personal tragedy. In many ways I have paid the price for people who thought and acted this way for my entire life. It's cruel and its nasty and you shouldn't make personal attacks on people like that when you have no idea who they are and where they are coming from.

        •  My response: (0+ / 0-)

          as for when I do and don't identify as Jewish, how the hell would you know? That's, again, called a lie - saying things with certainty when in fact you have no idea....

          You're right that I have no idea.  I apologize.  I saw what I considered to be a pattern of you taking the anti-Israeli side, in the beginning seemingly legitimizing it by saying your mother has Jewish blood, and later seemingly legitimizing it even more by saying you are Jewish, which is obviously different than having a mother with Jewish blood, i.e. it suggests that you were raised Jewish, when the previous statement suggests the opposite, that you weren't but your mother happens to have Jewish blood.  But you're right.  I took it and ran with it and I don't even know you.  

          There's another thing I'm going to say, just in case you actually have a heart in there somewhere, which actually I suspect is likely - you're just kind of sloppy and quick to anger is my suspicion.

          You got me.  That is a fair analysis of at least some of my comments in I/P diaries lately, although if memory serves you are guilty as well.  You should also note that I do not have such negative exchanges with fellow Kossacks in diaries that are not related to I/P and/or the primary wars.

          My grandparents, despite all their sympathy with left-wing politics, were ultimately completely unwilling to accept their daughter, who they had previously doted on, marrying a goy. When she did, they declared her dead - they did the funeral ceremony and everything - and forbade any of her three sisters to speak to her. Now, Tova, her youngest sister, always did keep in touch, but her two older ones kept to that for many years, and my grandmother never gave up at all. I grew up in Manhattan, my grandmother lived in Brooklyn and died when I was 12, but I never met her. Being rejected by her family tore my mother apart. She never really got over it.

          I'm sorry to hear that.  Seriously.  Children deserve all the love they can get, and grandparents are a great source.  Its too bad you (and your mother) were denied that.

          So, really: could you please give a little thought for what it means to throw around this "you're not Jewish!" nonsense. I'm sure it would never occur to you to think about it, since you clearly don't think terribly hard when you get angry and you seem to get angry very easily. But this kind of thing leads to terrible, terrible results, and, often awful personal tragedy. In many ways I have paid the price for people who thought and acted this way for my entire life. It's cruel and its nasty and you shouldn't make personal attacks on people like that when you have no idea who they are and where they are coming from.

          Again, sorry.  I certainly didn't know your personal history.  All I knew was a snapshot in which you were taking what I believed to be the anti-Israel side, and you started off by saying your mother had Jewish blood, and ended up saying you were Jewish.  I called it like I saw it at the time, and would probably call it the same way again, although I'd like to think I wouldn't take it and run with it like I did.

          Peace.

          MLK: "When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism."

          by PJ Jefferson on Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 02:52:02 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  peace to you too (1+ / 0-)
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            PJ Jefferson

             though really - if I'm not Jewish, then I'm certainly not anything else! I mean, I've never even seen the inside of a Lutheran church - my father hated Christianity! So what am I, nothing then? That would be sad. I'd like to think I'm something.
             oh well, I do appreciate the kind response though
             thanks
             we all get worked up over that particular issue. I do too. That's a lot of the problem. Far too much getting worked up for far too many years on all sides.
              David
             

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