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View Diary: Gillibrand: The Great Evolver (275 comments)

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  •  Just stop with that crap (0+ / 0-)

    Your arguement is just junk.  NO ONE supports dead children.  These emotional garbage arguements mixed with blatent lies needs to stop.

    Supporting law abiding citizens right to own guns is a no brainer which I wish more of our congress people supported.

    •  Irony deficiency? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NoisyWithdrawal, sullivanst

      No one opposes hunting rights, either.  Well, except PETA.

      If you want to have a serious discussion about gun issues, fine.  If you want to demagogue the issue there are people here who can demagogue rings around you.

      John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

      by LarryInNYC on Mon Jan 26, 2009 at 01:47:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, I agree! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

       These emotional garbage arguements mixed with blatent lies needs to stop.

      The NRA needs to stop with their BS!  I agree with you 100%

      Comments that say "GM workers should get retraining" without SPECIFIC DETAILS about those "new jobs" that never come are trollworthy

      by LordMike on Mon Jan 26, 2009 at 02:05:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I guess you supported the treatment of (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LI Mike

      Dan Cooper, too?

      Supporting law abiding citizens right to own guns isn't actually a no-brainer in the most generic sense, absent a 2nd amendment.

      Quite simply, the rate of gun deaths in this country is truly horrific and should be a massive national shame - but it's tolerated, just as the even-more-shameful health care situation has been tolerated for far too long.

      The point is that the irrational opposition to any and all gun controls doesn't protect the rights of law abiding citizens, it protects the rights of violent criminals. It also creates a culture of fear in which Texan gun-owners shoot their own children dead in the middle of the night fearing that they are house intruders, when in reality they were just partying late. Or the culture of irresponsibility around guns in which a 8-year-old boy blows his head off with an Uzi at a gun fair.

      I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
      -5.38, -6.41

      by sullivanst on Mon Jan 26, 2009 at 02:13:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have no problem with laws (0+ / 0-)

        and regulations meant to keep guns out of the hands of criminals as long as they don't impeded any law abiding citizen from buying or owning a gun.

        A great example of a gun law that was stupid was the Assualt Rifle Ban.  It effectively took away our right to own fancy deer rifles.  Many people thought it had something to do with Automatic weapons which was false as they are already illegal.  People don't realize that my semi auto deer rifle is more powerful then my AR-15 assualt rifle I own.  Furthermore, the law has now expired and nothing bad has happened which was no suprise at all.

        What we need is for people who use guns to craft the legislation so we don't have more crappy stupid laws like the assault rifle ban.

        Your story of the 8 year old is junk.  No law in the world will protect children from stupid parents.  You simply can't protect the public from their own stupidity.

        I could see on the other hand more gun training.  It would be wonderful to have every single child in America have to pass Gun Safety training to pass High School.  Much of the gun death is from city people who don't educate themselves about guns.  Training these folks like we train our children in the midwest would be very helpful.

        •  Nothing bad has happened? Really? (0+ / 0-)

          So I guess the deadliest shooting incident by a single shooter in US history doesn't count as "bad"?

          And the 8 year old wasn't just the parents. There was an instructor watching.

          Please try for a little more factual accuracy in your next reply.

          I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
          -5.38, -6.41

          by sullivanst on Mon Jan 26, 2009 at 03:08:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nothing bad did happen (0+ / 0-)

            That worst shooting in US history had nothing to do with Assault Rifles.  Do you even know what guns the shooter used and the difference?

            Furthermore, the parent the the instructor were STUPID.  I own Assault Rifles, Deer Rifles, Shotguns, and an array of Handguns.  I also have a 6 year old and a 12 year old.

            I would never allow either one to use a fully automatic gun like a UZI.  Do you realize that a UZI is NOT a assault rifle either, right?  Furthermore, my 12 year isn't even allowed to deer hunt with a rifle unless he is supervised by me.  The big difference of course is that the UZI was fully automatic while Assault rifles and Deere Rifles (THE SAME GUN BUT ONES LOOKS "SCARY") are semi auto so the recoil is reduced alot.

            Anyways, I think your post proves once again how people who don't own guns and use them really have no business talking about them.  You have no idea what you are even talking about.  Please research the difference between a UZI and assault rifles sir.

            Nothing bad has happened and assault rifles today can be purchased by any law abiding citizen.  The reason they are used in crimes is VERY obvious of course.  For starters they are way to expensive for you normal criminal to purchase.  Many are priced well above $2,000.  Furthermore, they are to large to conceal making them a horrible choice.  Lastly, they are a simple semi auto exactly like your standard deer rifle.  You don't see criminals using deer rifles either.

            While I am sure if you dig very hard you will find some crimes that used these guns, we are talking about something extremely rare.  More people get killed by vechicular homicide then by guns.

            This is also a great reason to force all High School students in America to pass gun safety training to get a High School degree.  It would reduce the stupidity factor a ton when it comes to guns.

            •  Flimsy straw man easily knocked down (0+ / 0-)

              You, entirely falsely, assume that I believe that all gun control is equivalent to the Clinton assault weapons ban. The AWB was clearly flawed in its somewhat arbitrary rules for inclusion, but it absolutely does not follow in any way, shape or form from that that gun control is bad.

              Incidentally, the 15-bullet clips the VT shooter used would have been outlawed under the AWB, even though I am aware the weapons used were both handguns.

              And actually, prior to the AWB, the Uzi was specifically designated by US law as an assault weapon. Under the AWB, the combination of folding stock and threaded barrel in an automatic rifle with a detachable magazine also means that Uzis meet its legal definition of "assault weapon". Pistol Uzis matched the criteria too, substituting its weight for the folding stock to have enough features in the pistol category. Historically, the fact that it was designed for IDF infantry assault troops would also lead most sane people to consider it an assault weapon.

              Given the Uzi shooting occurred at a licensed gun club, and you describe it as "STUPID", I struggle to see how you'll find non-STUPID instructors in sufficient numbers to teach every high school student in the country, or close to it. It really does serve, though, as an example of what happens when people reject any notion of limiting gun use, even such common-sense ideas as small children shouldn't fire automatic weapons.

              One doesn't have to dig especially hard to find an example of what most people would identify as an assault weapon being used in a crime (even if in this case it may well have not matched the silly AWB rules): the John Muhammed and Lee Boyd Malvo used a Bushmaster XM-15.

              I'm fully aware, though, that the majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns in cities. Which is why it's particularly galling when the NRA lobbies so hard to prevent police from stopping handguns being smuggled into cities to circumvent local gun regulations.

              Vehicular homicide is a terrible benchmark against which to measure gun killings. For a start, it is not uniformly defined, and secondly, it's mostly defined to specifically exclude murder - in Georgia, second degree homicide by vehicle is encompasses any fatal vehicle accident where any law governing vehicles is violated - including, say, speeding. You're comparing an apple to orange orchards. Moreover, we accept licensing laws for vehicles that are far stronger than gun licensing laws, speed limits and DUI laws, precisely because we recognize that vehicles are deadly. Well, guns are deadly too. And a huge part of the disparity in death rates is the enormous disparity between the amount of time we, on average, spend in a car vs. the amount of time we, on average, spend shooting guns.

              I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
              -5.38, -6.41

              by sullivanst on Mon Jan 26, 2009 at 05:14:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  UZI's are fully automatic (0+ / 0-)

                meaning they are illegal with or without the AWB.

                All I am saying overall is that we need more Dems in government that own guns and hunt.  We need less Dems who are anti gun nuts.  We 2nd admendment clearly states my right to own guns and luckily we have a supreme court who is protecting gun owners from the fringe anti gun crowd.

                What our government needs to focus on is criminals.  The old laws outlawing certain guns and making it extremely hard for law abiding citizens to purchase guns was bad rules and never worked.  Criminals still bought guns with ease because they don't follow the rules.  Our government need to focus on the black market for guns and stay awy from any new laws that infringe my right to purchase and own guns.  Making it harder for law abiding citizens to get guns makes no sense either.  They are legal under the law and making it harder for your average person to buy a gun does nothing to slow down criminals.

                The Assault rifle Ban will be a very good test for the Dem party now that they have the power.  It will be interesting to see if they are stupid enough to reenact this horrible legislation.  If they are, they are catering to a minority of anti gun freaks and pissing on the majority of Americans who realize how dumb the law is.  It would be very hard for many Americans, me included, to continue to vote for a party that took away another right.  That is generally why I am not a repug.  Dems are supposed to be the party about freedom of choice.  It is time to get gun owning Americans on our side.

                •  Again, flimsy straw man (0+ / 0-)

                  Very, very few Dems want to outlaw gun ownership. What they want is to reduce the number of people in possession of guns that are specifically designed to kill large numbers of human beings.

                  What kicked off the NRA's spat with Bloomberg was when he commissioned a study, he discovered that 82% of the guns used in crimes in NYC were bought in other states with lax gun laws like Georgia and Virginia, then smuggled into the city.

                  This is why the NRA so actively supports the ridiculous Tiahrt amendment. If people knew the truth about where the guns used in crime came from, it would disprove one of their favorite talking points.

                  One just has to have the slightest hint of common sense that if the country is awash with legal guns, it's going to be a lot more difficult for law enforcement to tell the illegal ones apart than if legal guns were somewhat unusual. One also doesn't need to be that smart to realize that the criminal mindset is not predisposed to recognizing deterrents, so the criminal won't think "they might have a gun, I'd better not break in", instead they'll think "they might have a gun, I'd better be ready to shoot first". The upshot of this is that the USA is the country most predisposed to the belief that civilians should carry guns for self-defense, but also has the highest rate of firearms murders in the developed world, by a wide margin. So not only does common sense suggest that gun deterrence won't work, the evidence shows that it does not work.

                  Also, automatic weapons are not illegal, they're just heavily regulated, requiring permission from the ATF.

                  I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
                  -5.38, -6.41

                  by sullivanst on Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 06:14:52 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Again, (0+ / 0-)

                    I have no problem with our government going after criminals that own and use guns.  Furthermore, going after illegal sales of guns is also a great idea.

                    I simply don't want the government enacting anymore laws that resrict law abiding citizens from purchasing and owning guns.  We already have enough laws to make it extremely difficult already for a normal citizen to go buy a handgun.

                    As long as the government focus' on criminals I have no problem.  They need to make sure that firearms are readily avaiable to law abiding citizens however.

                    •  Again, you're not paying attention (0+ / 0-)

                      Most of the guns used in crimes in NYC were first purchased from licensed dealers. The notion that guns used in crime come from an unregulated black market is an NRA fiction designed to justify their opposition to regulation.

                      And the claim that it's "extremely difficult" to buy a gun in this country deviates into the absurd. Almost no states restrict the purchase of weapons beyond the federally required background check. 36 states "shall issue" concealed carry permits to any qualified firearms owner (as in, there's no discretion allowed by the issuer). It's harder to get a car than a gun in most states, and yet you'll struggle to find anyone complaining about driver licensing laws.

                      I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
                      -5.38, -6.41

                      by sullivanst on Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 09:12:53 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't see the problem (0+ / 0-)

                        I never said that criminals only purchase guns on the black market.

                        What I am saying is that we need to strive very hard to make sure we don't make it any harder for people to purchase and own firearms.  Taking away or reducing our rights to own firearms is a nonstarter with the majority of Americans.  It is long past time for the Dem party to embrace gun owners and hunters instead of the anti gun extremist groups.  The number of votes they would gain would be remarkable.

                        •  This is never going to go anywhere (0+ / 0-)

                          We have a fundamental disagreement.

                          I believe the right to life trumps the right to gun ownership. You either believe that gun ownership is a higher right or exist in denial of the statistically demonstrable link between gun ownership (and in particular handgun ownership) and gun deaths.

                          I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
                          -5.38, -6.41

                          by sullivanst on Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 10:35:41 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I believe in both the right to life (0+ / 0-)

                            and the right to gun ownership as do the MAJORITY of Americans.  Taking away my right to own guns because there are criminals and people who lack gun safety skills is not founded in reason.

                            Are you prepared to take away everyones car because some are used to kill people?  Are you prepared to take away beer because some people die from it?  Should we not allow people to use knives because some people use them to stab people to death?  How about rope because you can strangle people with it?

                            People kill other people.  It is sad and it is wrong but guns aren't the problem.  Bad people are.  Guns are a simple tool like a knife or a car.  They can be used for good or for bad.  If we talked about percentages, the vast vast majority of handguns have never been involved in a crime.  You want to harm the majority of law abiding citizens because a very few people use these tools for bad.

                            Good luck with that.  Luckily our supreme court sided with the majority of Americans who believe in our right to purchase and own guns.

                          •  And yet the US murder rate (0+ / 0-)

                            is significantly higher than any other country in the developed world.

                            Guns do kill people. They are used in the majority of murders in the US - 66% of murders in 2004. In Britain, they were used in only 6.6% of murders in 2005/6 (the reporting year is not a calendar year) were from guns. The US murder rate in 2004 was 5.4 per 100,000. In Britain in 2005/6 it was 1.4 per 100,000 - and that was with an uptick caused by the 7/7 bombings.

                            And then there's suicide, which is the largest cause of gun deaths in the US, and guns are the method chosen for the majority of suicides. The easiest way to prevent suicide is to make it harder. The UK's suicide rate has fallen sharply in recent years, and it correlates with a number of changes that have made suicide harder: the domestic gas supply switched from highly toxic coal gas to much less lethal natural gas; handguns were banned; painkillers are now only sold in blister packaging; bridges have high barriers.

                            So fine, you go on playing with your toys while 30,000 Americans are killed by guns every year. That's ten 9/11s, every year.

                            I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
                            -5.38, -6.41

                            by sullivanst on Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 11:25:55 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Again, I count my lucky stars that (0+ / 0-)

                            me and the majority of Americans who enjoy our right to purchase and own guns are backed up now by the supreme court.  It was long overdue that we got the protection we needed from the anti gun nuts.  I don't see the point of arguing with you on this subject much longer.  The majority of Americans already won.  You folks in the tiny minority and your idea to take away rights has already lost thankfully.

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