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  •  On the contrary (3.33)
    Let's not stand and fight.

    Let's give them exactly what they ask for.  Why contest anything?  It only hides the full extent of their true nature.

    Don't contest anything.  This is what the people voted for.  Why not give it to them in it's full and complete form?  They want Bush.. they can have Bush.

    •  aoeu (4.00)
      Because only 51% of people want Bush.

      I don't feel like being put into camps, thank you very much.

      Gleeful Box Turtles
      finally get to see the
      Red Sox win it all.

      by TealVeal on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:13:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Can you (none)
        hear the applause all the way from New Mexico?

        I wear the black in mournin' for the lives that could have been,
        Each week we lose a hundred fine young men. -- Johnny Cash

        by Page van der Linden on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:16:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  teal, my theory (none)
        the country itself is to become PATRIOTland... the camps... "free speech zones"... you'll beg to be let into the camps.

        except I'm setting that paranoia aside so I can give Bush a second fair chance since he is the democratically elected POTUS.

        He doesn't deserve that chance in my estimation, but the voters of the US do... painful as it is.

      •  maybe (none)
        but on tax and other policies that don't involve personal freedom maybe it's time to let them hang themselves with their own rope.

        Currently, the low to moderate income folks are sheltered by our progressive tax systems.  Let them feel the pain of a real Republican tax "simplification" system and maybe a big chunk of them will wake up.   Maybe D's have to find a way to ally with whoever will in the R side to force Fed. govt to shrink to fit revenue.  Let the howling begin....

        •  aoeu (none)
          I don't know if this will work.  When people are struggling to get by they don't care about much else, see 1984.  When they are in dire financial straits they look for a reason why, and it's easy for a skilled Master of Deceit to manipulate that.  We know Rove is skilled.

          Gleeful Box Turtles
          finally get to see the
          Red Sox win it all.

          by TealVeal on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:37:57 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  me either (none)
            but what we're doing isn't exactly bringing success.

            Over the last 40 years, conservative D's have re-branded to R's over social issues (sex, race etc).  As long as their base is gettng by they can ignore their fiscal woes or blame them on "goddam liberals and their taxes".  Well let's kill off the Govt a al Norquist and let states go their own way.  When Ca and NY stop buying grain from Fundigelical land and shift to Argy wheat, maybe a few lightbulbs will go on.  Right now I feel a lot more kindly toward foreigners than midwestern/southerners anyway which is pretty conflicting for a southern baptist raised Georgian.

          •  There is a HUGE benefit to Bush reelection... (none)
            he is now discharged with the responsibility of cleaning up his own mess. Or making things infinitely worse. Whatever. But either way, it's his show. He has the White House, the Congress, the Supreme Court, the governers' mansions. It's his game and he's the boss. If we ever have another presidential election, it will all be on his shoulders.

            Maybe this is why Kerry folded so quickly. Can't say that I blame him.

            Remember the old saying "be careful what you wish for - you just might get it".

            The neocons have the whole shibbang now. It's theirs to win or lose. Is this country strong enough to survive 4 years under them? We'll find out. They sure haven't given me anything to be confident about, that's for sure.

        •  Cato Institute rethug on CNN (none)
          already suggesting the flat tax should be part of the simplification promised in the second term.
      •  asdf (none)
        That's not true.  Many of the 51% didn't want Bush but wanted Kerry even less.
        •  whaaa??? (none)
          Those kind of idiots deserve the president they voted for. I talked to two Bush supporters today who voted "against" Kerry.  They are exhibiting a lot of buyers regret already. One ended our conversation fearing that Bush would invade Iran.  The other said the only thing he was worried about with Bush was the budget, er, the economy, uh, the war in Iraq, um, the supreme court. By the end of the conversation, he was looking a little sick to his stomach. He ended up saying it wasn't his vote that made Bush president (blue state).
      •  Starting (none)
        to like the Second Amendment are ya Teal?

        Why do you think it was put into the constitution in the first place.

        "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job." - pRresident Bush | My other Drunken ravings

        by cdreid on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 03:28:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly (none)
      I have been saying this all day .... they control everything now, let them have their way.  They will have no one to blame when the shit hits the fan.  It's all on the GOP now.  Just think what would have happened with Kerry in the WH and more bad news out of Iraq  .... we would have never heard the end of how Kerry screwed it up, and how we were on the right track with chimpy.  As hard as it is to say, I see the good in losing.  Let chimpy clean up his own mess.  The public will put up with their failed policies for only so long.  Once the cuts in social programs hit, once the interests rate climb and the chickens come home to roost, there will only be one side to take the blame, and it wont be us.

      "you'd think that the worst thing that ever happened to us was the best thing that ever happened to you." Bill Maher

      by Tangerine on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:15:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  as if we have a choice!!! (none)
        as if!!!
        •  we dont have choice (none)
           but we do have a choice in how we handle it.
          it's all about our reaction
          make it clear, very step of the way ... these decisions are ours,
          the red mental state vs. the blue cool headed state

          "you'd think that the worst thing that ever happened to us was the best thing that ever happened to you." Bill Maher

          by Tangerine on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:28:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  We do. (4.00)
          When something the Republicans do doesn't work, we can en masse point it out.  If we do it loudly enough and often enough, with the same simple and memorable catchphrases, we can erode their standing.  For the first ones, I nominate:

          "Republican mismanagement"
          "Corrupted theology"
          "Republican incompetence"
          "False Christianity"

          Wouldn't it be great to have a President who did the right thing as the automatic choice instead of a grudging last resort?

          by DemInTampa on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:50:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  yes! (none)
            a short retreat to the world of concepts, rhetoric, and invention of words that move mountains.  

            That's where we can continue.  But we probably also have to be satisfied to frame some decisions as purely Republican.

            The Iraq War should have been purely republican... Democrats tried to coopt it, then uncoopt... then recoopt, no uncoopt.

            They are going to get to decide these things, it needs to be clear when they are gettin their way and the left isn't.

            And for sure opposition should be vocal and strong, that's always the case.

    •  Kerry obviously listens to you. (none)
      I can't believe we just gave up with a nice, polite little concession speech again. The Republican's went to court in Ohio to steal this election before it even started--and sure enough it worked. And instead of calling them on it, we stick to sanctimonious, high minded words. Wouldn't want to divide the country, after all.

      Meanwhile, shorter Cheney acceptance speech, "Hey, Dems, fuck you."

      Shorter Bush acceptance speech, "I have a mandate, FROM GOD!"

      I'm ready to stand and fight, but it seems more like people here want to rearrange the deck chairs on the titanic--and complain about the pessimists who point at the iceberg.

      •  And what good would that do ? (2.50)
        Face it, 50% of America agrees with them. erroneously or not.

        It was a bloodless coup. Let's keep it bloodless.

        There are enough American kids dying as it is.

        You want the Truth ? You can't handle the Truth ! ~~~~ See my blog here~~~~

        by lawnorder on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:40:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  How About... (none)
          Just pointing out that there were 55 million of us that voted against Bush, and we're still part of America, too. That unless Bush will move a little our direction, we will work our hardest to defeat him at every turn.

          I'm not talking armed revolution, I'm talking about not caving politically with polite platitudes to man we all believe to be a liar and a cheater. By politely caving in and talking unity, we've handed Bush his "Mandate From God" platform and he, and the media, can feel free to ignore 48% of the country as out of the mainstream radicals.

          •  I'd vouch for that (none)
            I still think we should push for Bush to get Kerry or at least Chuck Hagel on a cabinet seat.

            Kerry did the honorable thing. Now is Bush's turn

            If he was the LEADER he pretends to be, he'd do it.

            Lincoln would.

            Alas Goat reader is no Lincoln

            You want the Truth ? You can't handle the Truth ! ~~~~ See my blog here~~~~

            by lawnorder on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:41:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's my point, though (none)
              Bush will never do the honorable thing. The Republican are never honorable in either defeat or victory--and we keep fooling ourselves that they will be.

              It's like being stuck in an abusive relationship. We keep thinking that if we just act a little nicer, smile after a beating, then maybe they will stop hitting us and love us again. They don't love us. Just listen to Hannity on the radio--there is no talk of bringing Democrats into the discussion, just locking us up on reservations.

            •  Kerry as Secretary.... (none)
              of what, exactly? After watching the Bush cabinet in action for the last 4 years, can you really imagine them suddenly having a bipartisan thought? Remember Paul O'Neil? HE was their idea of a bipartisan cabinet member. And if Kerry was fool enough to accept such a fantasy appointment, he'd earn my contempt forever; I think he's way too smart to step into such a pile of Bushpoop.
            •  bb (none)
              Goat Leader is no leader.
            •  Leverage/ Power (none)
              The only real leverage we have that any of the corporations/ institutions / organizations will even blink at is economic.  Hit them in their bottom-line.  They know politically we can't really hurt them and they treat our Democratic congressmen/women with disrespect because they know they don't have the votes to prevent or move any legislation.  We know boycots or even the threat of boycoting products or facilities get noticed and response. It worked in Selma, Alabama for our black brothers and sisters. Make them pay for treating us like 2nd-class citizens.  Make it painful.  
      •  On the contrary (none)
        A happy concession speech was the absolute last thing I wanted to hear.  It sickened me.

        At this point we don't have power - not in a true sense.  Yeah, 49% of people voted for Kerry, but who cares when they have a majority in house and senate, what the hell does it matter what the particular nuance is of the people's sentiment?

        Bush is gonna do the same shit whether he has 99% popularity, 51% popularity, and now that he's been elected, 1% popularity.

        What we choose now is how we respond to this apparent vote of confidence in Bush.  And while what I said may sound like ankle grabbing, it's not.  It's disingenously cooperating, with the true goal of showing the people these bastards' true colors.

        As far as i'm concerned, we had our best possible chance this year at convincing people Bush was bad.  We failed, because we couldn't convince people while he sat there and pretended he had a halo.  So why not give Bush a shot of convincing people he's bad all by himself?  Of course, the SCLM will play their usual role in spreading perfumed reality - I take the view that we should leave the 'fridge door open and let the rotting stench get as strong as possible.

    •  Sometimes the worst nightmare is getting your wish (2.50)
      They want the Taliban ?

      Let's let them have it.

      Hell (can I still say it?), I will even clap at El Busho and pretend to like it.

      It will get worse if we turn against each other

      There's nothing to gain by all this division.

      Iraq is going bad enough. McCartism is back. It will only get worse if we Americans turn against each other... There are enough people who hate us, we don't need more hate

      So I'll cool down, lick my wounds and let go.

      Let them have their cake and eat it too, with seconds!

      They will NOT like the taste of it, I guarantee you.

      You want the Truth ? You can't handle the Truth ! ~~~~ See my blog here~~~~

      by lawnorder on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:29:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't Blame Me (humor) (none)
        Don't Blame Me (humor)

        Daily Kos :: Don't Blame Me (humor): "Don't Blame Me (humor)
        by Martial

        Wed Nov 3rd, 2004 at 17:03:42 CDT

        Two years from now, when US troops are gearing up for the fifth 'final' assault on Falluja in order to break we-really-mean-it-this-time the back of the insurgency, when the housing bubble has popped and the unemployment rate is climbing toward European heights, when you can actually see the arsenic in your tap water, when your high school's biology teacher has been disappeared for lecturing on evolution, when Osama bin Laden is welcomed as a regular guest on Crossfire . . .

        Two years from now, we'll see a lot of folks jumping on the 'don't blame me' bandwagon. It'll be harder finding folks who admit voting B/C than it is to find a sober Democrat today. It's all (ahem) part of Bush's doing whatever he can to create an environment where people take responsibility for their actions and accountability (like freedom) reigns."

        You want the Truth ? You can't handle the Truth ! ~~~~ See my blog here~~~~

        by lawnorder on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:44:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Get your head out of your ass (none)
        What is it with you "lawnorder"??

        Is this the first election you were old enough to be aware it was happening?

        All you fucking Generation Y-bother morons who say "let 'em have what they voted for" sound to me like the members of the German Communist Party in 1933 who said that - just before they got picked up and sent off to Dachau.

        You IDIOTS are a disgrace to being called Democrats.  Go back to your sandboxes and clean out your poopydrawers.

        William Goldman was right when he said the three rules of Hollywierd are "1) Nobody, 2) knows, 3) anything." Works in the real world, too.

        by HollywierdLiberal on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:15:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  as if we have a choice (none)
          don't you think they planned for THAT too ?

          Face it, we were diebolded.

          You want the Truth ? You can't handle the Truth ! ~~~~ See my blog here~~~~

          by lawnorder on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:26:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's my 3rd US election (none)
          My family already lost a lot fighting dictators elsewhere.

          Do you know what they say of Ass umptions ?

          Your bravery would sound very funny in the place my uncle died. The torturers love a sassy prisoner.

          You want the Truth ? You can't handle the Truth ! ~~~~ See my blog here~~~~

          by lawnorder on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:30:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  The problem is (none)
        the "they" in your sentence. I had exactly the same sentiment at first. During the depression. The acceptance. The anger phases (though this one hasnt gone away since 1982). I wanted to say , once again (as i did when i washed my hands of politics and voting around 1996) "fuckem".

        But here's the problem. I have two very young nephews i adore. I have a 19yo sister just starting life i literally worship. They, as i , are red staters. Every one of us voted straight ticket Dem. My mother is in her sixties and had never voted before. She voted straight ticket democrat. The R's want to put her SS in the hands of stock market gamblers. The R's want to teach my nephews that a little old man created the world in six days and that science is evil. The R's want to tell my sister she is less than a male. The R's want to cut my nephews education. The R's want my brother to have to work til the day he dies just to survive. The R's want to starve my 80yo world war two veteran grandfather to death.

        Of course it is tempting to give up. To wash your hands. But we cant. Because if there is one thing the left truely stands for it is protecting the weak. Helping those in need. Fighting for those who cannot fight for themselves. Republicans idealise greed, avarice, personal gain, all the moral failures of humanity. We idealise compassion, truth, love, courage, standing up for those who cant stand for themselves. We fight for others. We cannot quit. We arent given a choice. It is in our very beings.

        We truely are the forces of light. They truely do represent all that is vile in the human soul. It isn't hyperbole. It isnt spin. It is simply truth.
        We can never give up. We can never stop fighting.

        And in your heart of hearts you know it.

        "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job." - pRresident Bush | My other Drunken ravings

        by cdreid on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 03:40:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Catastrophic Success (3.00)
      Let them have catastrophic success.  They own all three branches of the government.  Let the public see what this kind of government will bring.  We'll see un- and under-employed masses with no social programs for support and no health care for those in the new shanty towns.

      The only stands Dems should take should be on civil liberties and judicial appointments.

      If every economic and foreign policy initiative slides right through, there will be no one else to blame in two years.  Then the Dems need to focus on the Republicans inevitable failures.

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