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  •  Pronouncements are meaningless (none)
    But how does Ms. Van den Heuvel's column avoid that epithet?

    My point is a simple one with little need for description -

    Bush and the GOP pretended to be what they are not - moderate on social issues.

    We pretend to outvalue them instead of calling them out.

    the fixation on the South - the God, gays and guns - the make them think about economic issues is a mistake my view - we are a divided nation - make the moderates chosse sides on the VALUES issues.   That's my prescription.

    It's time to reject a President that says to the American people 'Ignore my record, forget my failures and fear the future.' - Kerry Campaign

    by Armando on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:54:00 PM PST

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    •  My arguement is a very different one (none)
      By Pronouncements I mean the pronouncement you, Kos and the other pundits are making that this election was about "values". Politics is always about values

      But I'm not sure that "calling the GOP" out is the strategy that wins the prize, I think what and who has to be called out is Red State America.  We have to take them on full-force and do that heavy lifting.  

      At any rate, when during this campaign did the GOP pretend to be social moderates?  Not anytime that I saw. That wouldn't have won them the election.

      In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

      by a gilas girl on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 05:45:12 PM PST

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      •  Exactly! There continues to be .. (none)
        ... some cognitive dissonance around the blogosphere that if we'd just talk tougher, just do a better job of exposing the GOP bullshit, and, more or less call their bluff, we'd definitely win. I'm all for doing those things, but I'm uncertain as to how they would play out. It's not just the Republican politicians who exercise a double standard, getting away with all kinds of things in content and tone that they berate the Democrats for. It's a good hunk of Red State voters (and, lest we forget, Red voters in Blue States) who themselves apply this double standard. That is no easy obstacle to overcome.

        Those Red folks really do hold values different from "ours." Gay marriage doesn't bother me, but the death penalty does. Reproductive rights - I am not just talking about abortion - are a key issue on my priority list just as they are for Red Staters, too, and never never never will the twain meet.

        Thus, I think this argument that if we tackle  "values" head on, we have a better chance of winning doesn't follow at all.

        Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy.

        by Meteor Blades on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 07:14:46 PM PST

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        •  Yes (none)
          For all the people who want to say that the Democrats have no spine, don't want to attack the Republicans, that's slightly off, it seems to me.  What the Democrats don't want to attack are the GOP supporters.  The GOP doesn't have the same qualms, their entire public apparatus is built upon a foundation of attacking not the politicians of the Democratic party, but the citizens and groups that support them.

          While I don't think the Dems necessarily have to "attack" Red Staters, I do think they have to confront them. (And it wouldn't hurt if they defended their own supporters rather than running after those voters that attack them, but that's another story). That's what's always missing out of the Democratic media/PR gameplan.

          In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

          by a gilas girl on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 07:35:06 PM PST

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          •  Not what I said at all (none)
            I blame no one. Hell, I said talk only about Iraq.  The first finger pointed is at me.  I got snookered.  Rove snookered us.

            He appealed to 5 million MORE haters we weren't expecting.  but we didn't make it hurt and knock off a million or more moderates.

            I blame no one. Just ask that the lesson be learned.

            It's time to reject a President that says to the American people 'Ignore my record, forget my failures and fear the future.' - Kerry Campaign

            by Armando on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 09:10:31 PM PST

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            •  I actually wasn't thinking about you (none)
              but was responding to MB's response to my comment. In doing that I was calling up my memories of many threads here and one very prevalent type of argument that recurs regularly.  Not everyone espouses it, but it seems that is is always represented in nearly every thread by someone.

              In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

              by a gilas girl on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 05:45:10 AM PST

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        •  Missing the point (none)
          My point was make bush take some hits when he rides in the car with the haters.  That didn't happen.

          It's time to reject a President that says to the American people 'Ignore my record, forget my failures and fear the future.' - Kerry Campaign

          by Armando on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 09:08:27 PM PST

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      •  "Values" (none)
        not values.  Hate - gays, pro-choice, science, knowledge, blacks, foreigners.

        Sure there were many issues - "values" was the decider.

        It's time to reject a President that says to the American people 'Ignore my record, forget my failures and fear the future.' - Kerry Campaign

        by Armando on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 09:07:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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