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  •  Weak argument, P in B (0+ / 1-)
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    Eternal Hope

    The boycott against South Africa did a lot of good-- and it also hurt the people we wanted to help. And the ANC was OK with that.

    South Africa's practices became known and talked about throughout the world. A moral laser beam shone on South African apartheid practices and it became impossible to continue. The force of moral persuasion forced the apartheid South African government to release thousands of ANC prisoners who, as Israel has done with the Palestinians, had held them for years without a just trial or jury of peers. Nelson Mandela was chief among those released by the moral laser beam.

    You argue the "everybody does it defense" and, as always, it is unpersuasive.

    Let's be truthful here. Israel's is not a moral argument. Israel wants more land and is willing to take it by any means necessary. It wants Palestinians out of Gaza and out of the West Bank. Zionists want all that land for themselves and are willing to kill or deport every single Arab to get to that goal.

    You defend Zionism as though it is something special. Religious nationalism is dangerous ideology and progressives oppose it. Always. Whether Arab Nationalist or Christian Nationalist or Jewish Nationalist or ... . Religion plus nationalism means trouble. Killing populations with the argument that you have "God on your side" convinces no one but the killers, and even they, or especially they are clear on their motives and goals.

    The lesson of that history is that you must not despair, that if you are right, and you persist, things will change. -Howard Zinn

    by skywriter on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 03:57:21 PM PST

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    •  You are being silly, at best (1+ / 0-)
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      Eternal Hope

      Let's dissect a few of your idiotic statements:

      "Israel wants more land and is willing to take it by any means necessary."

      If Israel wants more land, then why did it pull out of Gaza unilaterally several years ago?  That's hardly the actions of a country that wants more land. They must be more conniving than we imagine.  

      "It wants Palestinians out of Gaza and out of the West Bank."

      Really?  If this is the case, again, why did the Israelis not just leave Gaza, but leave it to the Palestinians living there?  Hmmmm.  And as for the West Bank, if it wants the Palestinians out of the West Bank, why has it not expelled them?  It certainly has had plenty of time and opportunity.  They are either crafty beyond our reckoning, or really really incompetent.  

      "Zionists want all that land for themselves and are willing to kill or deport every single Arab to get to that goal."

      Ah, now we are getting to the core of your hatred and bigotry.  If these Evil Zionists are willing to kill or deport every single Arab to get all the land for themselves, why haven't they done so? Why haven't they even come close?  How many Palestinians were killed during the Gaza operation?  About 1000?  That's out of 1.5 million.  That's less than one tenth of one percent.  Wow.  

      Come back when you aren't sounding like such an idiot.

      In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

      by Paul in Berkeley on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 08:10:37 PM PST

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      •  P in B-- (0+ / 0-)

        How many Palestinians were killed during the Gaza operation?  About 1000?  That's out of 1.5 million.  That's less than one tenth of one percent.  Wow.  

        Haven't you written about the one Israeli soldier held prisoner by Palestinians?

        Haven't you justified the killing of no more than 20 Israelis by rockets launched by Palestinians as equivalent to the killing of, as you state inaccurately, "About 1000" Palestinians.

        Where are your values? Where is your humanity? It appears you have neither.

        The rightwing government you defend mowed down farms, schools, dense housing, and systematically denies water to Arabs. Extreme rightwing settlers are systematically taking West Bank land and, unlike you, do not pretend they are not doing so.

        you wrote:

        Come back when you aren't sounding like such an idiot.

        Like Keith Moon, you have your mind made up.

        The lesson of that history is that you must not despair, that if you are right, and you persist, things will change. -Howard Zinn

        by skywriter on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 11:18:55 PM PST

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        •  Have I written about it? (1+ / 0-)
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          Eternal Hope

          Go find my writings.  Do your research, because right now, you just sound more and more like an uninformed fool.

          And remember, it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt.

          In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

          by Paul in Berkeley on Sun Feb 15, 2009 at 11:00:21 AM PST

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      •  Look at what Israel has done to this child (0+ / 0-)

        It is clear that "Paul in Berkeley" and "Eternal Hope"
        have no moral center, no conscience, no empathy for people you two see as "different" from yourselves, and that is too bad.

        People who lack conscience are weak and they are dangerous.

        Maybe this will help you develop a conscience and empathy. More likely it won't. Look at what the country you champion did to children with white phosphorous.
        http://www.latimes.com/...

        Lacking in a moral argument, what do you call this? Righteous collective punishment of Arabs because Israel is testing weapons?

        The lesson of that history is that you must not despair, that if you are right, and you persist, things will change. -Howard Zinn

        by skywriter on Sun Feb 15, 2009 at 06:27:31 AM PST

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    •  Zero: (1+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      Paul in Berkeley
      Hidden by:
      skywriter

      Zionists want all that land for themselves and are willing to kill or deport every single Arab to get to that goal.

      The claim that all Zionists somehow advocate a genocidal policy towards the Palestinians is not only nonfactual, it is antisemitic as well.

      •  When rationale thought leaves (0+ / 0-)

        you holler "anti-semite" and throw donuts? Here have one yourself.

        Let's be clear: Anti-religious nationalism is not anti-semitic. Zionism is religious nationalism.

        The lesson of that history is that you must not despair, that if you are right, and you persist, things will change. -Howard Zinn

        by skywriter on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 11:07:56 PM PST

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        •  You're against collective punishment, right? (1+ / 0-)
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          Paul in Berkeley

          So, why the hell do you collectively blame every Zionist for this mess that we're in? Attacking the Israeli government is fine -- that's what I do every day. You're practicing the same kind of collective punishment that you say you're against. That is just like what Bin Laden did when he collectively blamed the American people, rather than our government, for our government's policies in the Middle East. Don't attack the people -- attack the government.

      •  Look at what Israel has done to this child (0+ / 0-)

        It is clear that "Paul in Berkeley" and "Eternal Hope"
        have no moral center, no conscience, no empathy for people you two see as "different" from yourselves, and that is too bad.

        People who lack conscience are weak and they are dangerous.

        Maybe this will help you develop a conscience and empathy. More likely it won't. Look at what the country you champion did to children with white phosphorous.
        http://www.latimes.com/...

        Lacking in a moral argument, what do you call this? Righteous collective punishment of Arabs because Israel is testing weapons?

        The lesson of that history is that you must not despair, that if you are right, and you persist, things will change. -Howard Zinn

        by skywriter on Sun Feb 15, 2009 at 06:28:16 AM PST

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      •  Did you think you'd see the day? (1+ / 0-)
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        Eternal Hope

        When, after all that you've written here, some pro-P douchebag calls you immoral and without conscience?

        With friends like that, the Palestinians certainly have no need of enemies.

        In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

        by Paul in Berkeley on Sun Feb 15, 2009 at 11:16:18 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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