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View Diary: UPDATEDx2:  Roy Bennett abducted by Zimbabwe police (238 comments)

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  •  I see this going, like, Iraq well. (7+ / 0-)

    Remove Mugabe with force and you probably start another bush war (no pun intended). He has control of the army and various bands of armed thugs who don't want to go down with him.

    Yeah, Mugabe's a thug and a murderer, but consider what price in blood and treasure are you are willing to pay to rid the world of a relative nuisance.

    DC - America's own little Green Zone. -Pescadero Bill

    by James Kresnik on Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 02:48:39 PM PST

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    •  I herewith call for tyrannicide (4+ / 0-)

      I herewith call for the assassination of Mr. Robert Gabriel Mugabe, the tyrant of Zimbabwe.

      Enlightenment and Responsibility ... P.S.: In the Palestine conflict debate, "Justice" is nothing but a code word for "more dead people".

      by anaxiamander on Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 04:31:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Volunteering? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tuffy, capelza, James Kresnik

        Or just another couch cowboy?

        •  It should be done professionally (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vets74, loftT, BlackQueen40

          I did actually get a training in sniping in the army, but I think it should be done by a professional team.

          Enlightenment and Responsibility ... P.S.: In the Palestine conflict debate, "Justice" is nothing but a code word for "more dead people".

          by anaxiamander on Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 05:01:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'd recommend that comment twice if I could (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vets74

            Why oh why didn't we just pay the pros to take out Saddam? You can pay someone just one month's worth of Iraq warring and get the job done fast.

            •  Your eagerness (7+ / 0-)

              to plunge a poor country into civil war has been noted.

              •  Your comfortableness ... (5+ / 3-)

                ... with Mr. Mugabe's violent tyranny in Zimbabwe, the breakdown of economy and society, mass starvation and mass deaths of disease, all in the name of "anti-imperialist revolution" has been noted, too.

                Before I came to know you, Christopher Day, I always wondered what kind of people are the ones that such tyrannies can count on. You contributed to my education by giving me the answer in person ...

                Enlightenment and Responsibility ... P.S.: In the Palestine conflict debate, "Justice" is nothing but a code word for "more dead people".

                by anaxiamander on Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 05:53:27 PM PST

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                •  Bite me. (3+ / 1-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tuffy, subtropolis, NY brit expat
                  Hidden by:
                  Andhakari

                  You slanderous sack of shit.

                •  Killing Mugabe isn't a magic wand (4+ / 0-)

                  He really does have strong support from about 30% of the population, who have recieved his patronage.

                  There's no telling what happens if he's snuffed, especially if it's done by agents that can be traced to a Western Power.

                  Not to say I wouldn't dance with glee if the old bastard dropped dead, but do we really know what the result would be?

                  We could have, maybe, assasinated Saddam.

                  Would Uday have been an improvement?

                •  Don't make things up, anaxiamander. (0+ / 0-)

                  DC - America's own little Green Zone. -Pescadero Bill

                  by James Kresnik on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 04:17:43 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  And another thing anaxiamander, (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  zett, NY brit expat, soysauce

                  I've noticed in your repeated pronouncements to 'take out' a particular threat to the goodness of mankind never takes into account the historical, political, economic, military and social factors of the environment.

                  Moreover your knee-jerk policy prescriptions never seriously plan for any scenario beyond 'taking out' the immediate threat.

                  Sounds familiar to a few situations we've created in the past?

                  That's never a sound strategy and has gotten a lot of people, who aren't the bad guys, in a whole lot of trouble.

                  DC - America's own little Green Zone. -Pescadero Bill

                  by James Kresnik on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 04:33:56 AM PST

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                  •  Consequences of "taking out" (0+ / 0-)

                    Weli, in the diary where I suggested taking out Hamas in Gaza, I explictly addressed and answered the issue od what should happen afterwards.

                    In Zimbabwe, honestly, I do not know what would follow taking out Mugabe by means of tyrannicide. From my knowledge and impression, there is only the political opposition (which won the last election but was denied office by Mr. Mugabe) that opportunists could and would turn to. But even elements of a civil war for a limited period of time would, in my opinion, be better than more of the same.

                    Enlightenment and Responsibility ... P.S.: In the Palestine conflict debate, "Justice" is nothing but a code word for "more dead people".

                    by anaxiamander on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 07:27:13 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  This all comming from the same character (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      NY brit expat

                      who advocated outright genocide in Palenstine to 'take out' Hamas. How does your standard of 'human rights' level with your previous position in other areas?

                      In Zimbabwe, honestly, I do not know what would follow taking out Mugabe by means of tyrannicide.

                      So, you advocate a position that could have profound negative consequences for the people  to remove someone...you don't approve of. So, who would this effort and potential bloodshed be all for; the people on the ground? Hardly.

                      But even elements of a civil war for a limited period of time would, in my opinion, be better than more of the same.

                      How would you limit a civil war, in the first place? This reeks of the kind of and magical thinking and callous disregard for life that the necons frequently substitute for strategic planning.

                      This 'strategy' reeks not only of impracticality and lazy thinking, but ample amounts of hubris informed by a mindset of a lynch mob.

                      With your arbitrary standards and eagerness to use violence to deal with foreign disagreements - dammed the consequences for the people most affected by that application of violence - you are the very last person on earth to be lecturing Christopher Day on the justification of tyranny and brutality.

                      DC - America's own little Green Zone. -Pescadero Bill

                      by James Kresnik on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 01:09:05 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  People in Zimbabwe are suffering now (0+ / 0-)

                        the consequences for the people most affected by that application of violence

                        People in Zimbabwe are suffering right now. They are right now "affected by that application of violence" from Mr. Mugabes tyranny, the presumed "anti-imperialist" credentials of which are so ridiculously hailed by Mr. Day.

                        I suggested a remedy. Mr. Day did not. I have to assume that human suffering in the name of "anti-imperialist revolution" is fine with him.

                        And I did never "advocate genocide" in Palestine. I advocated operation Cast Lead for the common good of every man, woman and child in Palestine. To mitigate the suffering caused by the "anti-imperialist" theofascist tyranny of Hamas in Gaza, what Cast Lead successfully achieved.

                        Enlightenment and Responsibility ... P.S.: In the Palestine conflict debate, "Justice" is nothing but a code word for "more dead people".

                        by anaxiamander on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 01:59:36 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Suffering, so are people in Palestine, (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          NY brit expat

                          in no small part to Israel's ongoing policy of disproportionate response to every perceived threat rather than engaging and neutralizing it systematically and politically. 'Cast Lead' is a short-term relief that is almost guaranteed to politicially strengthen the 'islamofacist' in Gaza and elsewhere.

                          An honest review of warfare and international relations strongly suggests that a tactical solution to achieve a strategic aim will, more often than not, guarantee a resumption and escalation of conflict until, presumably, things get out of control.

                          And, on reviewing the record, I will readily admit I was wrong on the genocide claims. What is clear is your advocacy of ethnic cleansing with Israel being the unilateral arbiter of such, and using a rather one-sided rationale to justify such actions.

                          Either way, the point stands: removing Mugabe outside of Zimbabwe's internal politics will greatly increase the chance of destabilizing the region and causing a great deal more suffering than leaving him to be removed or shuffle off this mortal coil.

                          By the way, how can an Islamic militant also be a fascist outside of contradictory contrivance? Newspeak designed for emotional shock effect isn't terribly useful outside of propaganda.

                          DC - America's own little Green Zone. -Pescadero Bill

                          by James Kresnik on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 02:57:01 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                •  Hidden because you accused someone who has worked (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  James Kresnik

                  for human rights and has consistently diaried on it (and Mugabe) on the site as a supporter and abettor of such an heinous person. This amounts to slander.

                  No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable (Adam Smith, 1776, I, p. 96).

                  by NY brit expat on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 06:00:07 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You mean the same guy (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    NY brit expat

                    who openly entertained, no, encouraged genocide in Palenstine and has frequently opined that Palenstian Arabs are categorically unworthy of human-rights protections?

                    DC - America's own little Green Zone. -Pescadero Bill

                    by James Kresnik on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 01:20:51 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  anaximander (0+ / 0-)

                      Yeah, that guy.

                      DC - America's own little Green Zone. -Pescadero Bill

                      by James Kresnik on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 01:24:44 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  anaxiamander is the one as opposed to anaximander (0+ / 0-)

                        they are 2 different people with different perspectives. It is anaxiamander who seems to support political assassinations, character assassinations, as only thinks that human rights apply to white people from wealthy countries ... yes, a real critical thinker and supporter of humanity and civilisation.

                        No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable (Adam Smith, 1776, I, p. 96).

                        by NY brit expat on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 04:20:24 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

              •  oh please... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                anaxiamander

                but civil war in the name of "revolution" is always peachy with you, right?

                (Sadly, in Kathmandu no longer.)

                by American in Kathmandu on Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 08:41:08 PM PST

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                •  Peachy (0+ / 0-)

                  is not a word I would use. I think it best that revolutions NOT lead to civil wars, but when they do it is certainly true that I care who wins. When the question of slavery was joined in the US, it produced a Civil War that I would characterize as revolutionary. The war itself was an enormous human tragedy, but I would say the abolition of chattel slavery was worth it.

                  What did you do in Kathmandu?

                  •  we've had far too many conversations already (0+ / 0-)

                    you and I, about the Maoist movement during my years in Nepal to spend any more time on it.  

                    I was no fan of the king.  However I also was no fan of a group that made a habit of chopping into tiny pieces anyone who disagreed with them, and who, even today while they're holding the prime minister's chair, send roving gangs of thugs with clubs down the streets to enforce illegal strikes and vandalize the property of anyone not on their good side.  

                    But then, I kinda like democracy, and while I think empowering people is important, and so is doing away with injustice and inequality, it actually DOES matter very much how you get there.  Assuming you want to not replace one tyrrany with another, that is.  It poorly serves the Nepali people's thirst for more say in their country and having a government more responsive to their needs and wants, through the only mechanism that really works -- establishing their rights to exercise votes to hold their government accountable -- only to put in power a group that has no interest in freedom of the press (and in fact has issued stunningly chilling warnings to the press not to question it, even after taking over the government), and made it pretty clear it's unlikely to welcome any questioning of its hold on power, or any unpleasant methods it chooses to use.  It amazes me to see the same people damning (rightfully) torture by our government blithely writing that torture by a "freedom fighting" organization is somehow acceptable.  

                    I do not see those sorts of attitudes or actions as something we should support.  And I bet you don't either to some degree anyway - but where we part ways is that I would have said it was entirely predictable this group would behave that way in seeing how they came to power.  Because no, perhaps unlike you (or it's how I've read you) I do not think the ends justify the means.  I think the sense of injustice is valid.  I just think you only perpetuate it by supporting a group that is so illiberal and undemocratic.

                    (Sadly, in Kathmandu no longer.)

                    by American in Kathmandu on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 07:43:38 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Nice of you to appoint yourself as his judge, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        James Kresnik

        jury and executioner. If he has committed crimes, he should stand trial for them. This comment has no place on a site which purports to have discussions by people who have critical faculties.

        No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable (Adam Smith, 1776, I, p. 96).

        by NY brit expat on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 06:06:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe, maybe not. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tikkun

      Lots of the army isn't doing so hot either, some of them have already turned to direct pillaging just to survive.

      If the forcible removal came with sufficient humanitarian aid, things could go quite well.

      Member, The Angry Left.

      by nosleep4u on Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 06:25:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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