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View Diary: CNN Poll: People Trust Politicians More Than Business People (138 comments)

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  •  I don't argue with a FPer lightly... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DemFromCT, superscalar, MindRayge, Mariken

    But here goes...

    DemFromCT, you floundered the analysis on this one.

    Both things can be true. It is entirely possible for the same people to both like how President Obama is dealing with the economy and not want to use tax money to keep people out of foreclosure.

    They are not mutually exclusive, and that 55% sounds about right, just based on what I see and hear every day.

    I'm definitely left-of-center economically, and I'm pretty opposed to foreclosure bailouts. Mostly because, until two days ago, I'd never seen a proposal that could work without providing taxpayer subsidized future profit to bubble buyers.

    I don't think that Ras is fluffing the Republicans on this one. I think that a majority are actually opposed to this.

    Housing rant mode: ON

    The right answer, both economically and ethically, is to let the foreclosure process move along in an orderly fashion, get those who cannot afford their houses into rentals, and let them get started on the 7-10 years of credit repair they'll need to do anyway. Maybe there's a a way the government can provide some short-term funding to allow banks to space out the foreclosures, and spread out the arrival of additional supply. I'll think about that one. Short sharp shock or long slow bleed? I don't know what's worse.

    Prices have to come back down to their historic ratios to income. There's no way to keep this from happening, and they'll likely overshoot on the downside. They always do. From that, the inventory will be what it'll be. All the foreclosed and walk-away units will find buyers at some price, and the market will begin functioning again, in a much more normal and non-bubbly way.

    --Shannon

    "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
    "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

    by Leftie Gunner on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 08:07:26 AM PST

    •   what I wrote (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shaharazade, island in alabama

      There's more work to be done on the program for homeowners

      and everyone is uncomfortable with the sums of money involved and perceived fairness. Nonetheless (ABC/WaPo),

      While Obama has encountered near unanimous GOP opposition to his stimulus plan in Congress and widespread criticism for a housing bailout plan some critics say rewards people who have been fiscally irresponsible, 64 percent of those polled back the economic recovery package and the same percentage backs the mortgage proposal.

      Overall, 60 percent of poll respondents approve of how he is dealing with the economy.

      translation: not thrilled, but (like going to the dentist) do it if that's what's needed.

      Please read Ras' wording very carefully, and look at other polls.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 08:45:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But you also included this (0+ / 0-)

        A majority of poll respondents said bankers, not all Americans, would benefit from rescuing the nation’s financial institutions. An even wider majority said the struggling automotive companies should not receive further taxpayer money to help them survive. And while there is a strong belief that government should help homeowners avoid foreclosure, people are evenly divided over whether the plan announced last week is fair.

        So while trumpeting the 64% (I assume that is the strong belief that the government should help) you have this part about being EVENLY divided over whether it is fair or not.

        Santelli was talking about the fairness of it all. There is no way of knowing whether he would be in favor of a plan that helped homeowners that were in trouble while weeding out those that shouldn't be helped. And that is because no one has put any plan like that forward. According to Shelia Bair the government isn't even going to go through the process of eliminating the liar loans or the ones that took a 125 percent cash out, zero down interest only loan out on an inherited, paid for, home so that they could buy a boat, and a couple of ATVs, and use the rest to buy up an over-priced fixer-upper in a run down neighborhood to try and flip. And that is the shame of it all and why there is going to be quite a bit of unfairness.

        And there are other ways it will be unfair in cases where none of that happened and the only circumstance is that you might make $3.00 an hour more than your neighbor on almost exactly the same house (in developments it is common and with townhouses a given) with exactly the same starting principal and exactly the same mortgage payment. Now, that kind of situation is going to be completely unfair to a person that can't get this benefit because they made a lousy $6000 more than their neighbor in wages. And it will occur more often than people think.

        •  until we know the details (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MindRayge

          it's just guesswork, but the idea that there'll be some things that aren't perfect? Probably. Does that defeat the whole program? Doubtful.

          my take is that America will take a wait and see on the outcome, but gives Obama the blessing to try.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:09:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  oh, and i never said (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      island in alabama

      prices should stay up. they need to come down, but in a way that doesn't have folks paying their mortgages abandoning their homes.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 08:47:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think there is such a way. (0+ / 0-)

        No matter what the rate of decline is, if the endpoint is the same.

        Every houseowner has a "fuck it" point, and if the value of their house falls below that, they say "fuck it" and walk away.

        And that's probably the best decision for them. Considering how long it's going to take, say, a 2006 buyer here in San Diego just to break even (my guess is 15-20 years in absolute dollars and 25+ inflation-adjusted), they're essentially renting anyway.

        But essentially, the people that are gonna walk, are gonna walk, unless you prop of prices. Which would help a lot of people, but it would also fuck a lot of people, and even worse, the people that it fucks are also the ones who pay for it, so they get fucked again.

        I wasn't accusing you of thinking prices shouldn't fall. Sorry if I gave you that impression. But baked into all of the proposals I've seen is exactly that assumption. They all try to make all that magic money come back from wherever it went.

        Sorry, America... the Magic Money Fairy is on vacation... for a long, long time.

        --Shannon

        "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
        "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

        by Leftie Gunner on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:47:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  we all have questions about the plan (0+ / 0-)

          and rather than keeping absolutely everyone from walking away, we need to keep the smallest reasonab le number from walking away (and people usually don't, as it screwes their credit reports).

          The alternative of doing nothing? Unacceptable politically.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:57:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  here's a different take, same idea (0+ / 0-)

      On Obama's plan to help some homeowners who can't pay their mortgages, a 59% majority call the aid "necessary" — but a 51% majority also call the taxpayer-funded rescue "unfair."

      "Look, the American people are pleased with the direction Barack Obama is taking, but there are still parts of the economic recovery plan that people are not sure about," says Simon Rosenberg of NDN, a Democratic-leaning think tank. "He has to make it very clear that his focus is on the struggle of everyday people, and not on those with means."

      I think that's right, and doesn't contradict what I wrote. The key word is the public ses it as "necessary", even many of those who do not like it.

      http://www.usatoday.com/...

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:10:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Now I get it. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DemFromCT

        What I took as your diary's thesis was that, since 60% of people support Obama's handling of the economy, that meant that Rasmussen's "55% think it rewards bad behavior" must be either wrong or misleading.

        Which isn't true... and it seems that you didn't say it, or at least weren't trying to say it.

        --Shannon

        "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
        "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

        by Leftie Gunner on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:52:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  people think the bailout of the auto industry (0+ / 0-)

          and the banks rewards bad behavior (and strongly oppose the auto bailout on those grounds), and are much more divided and don't quite know what to think about homeowners.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:59:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Of course, some of the supporters (0+ / 0-)

            would benefit, so the greatere ambivalence is understandable. There are far more potential beneficiaries.

            "A policy that robs Peter to pay Paul will always have Paul's support."

            --Shannon

            "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
            "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

            by Leftie Gunner on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 01:19:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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