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View Diary: Forced Navajo Relocation Continues on Big Mountain (Update) (197 comments)

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  •  Geez - (0+ / 0-)

    Because the "white tactic" relative here is pitting Indian against Indian, which began in the Civil War.

    It pretty darn obvious that you know little about American Indian History or American History, for that matter.  Europeans were pitting Indian against Indian from the days of Cortez and probably before.  We just about Cortez because he left records and made good use of the seething hostility towards the Aztecs among the conquered peoples.

    So Europeans have been pitting Indian against Indian for 500 years - except that for much of that period, the various Indian groups were doing what they were doing in their own self interest - believing that they were using the white man for their ends.  The best example would be the Treaty of Fort Stanwix, where the Iroquois preserved their own lands by giving away the lands of the Shawnee and Cherokee.

    It truly is sad that people discuss the complexities of American Indian History with little knowledge of the subject other than opinions and stereotypes.

    •  What Would An Indian Know About Indian History? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      capelza, Winter Rabbit, dewley notid

      It pretty darn obvious that you know little about American Indian History

      Who knows it better than those who write history - or those who live it?

      The victors write the history.

      But then they die.

      And then the truth is known.

      For whatever good that does.

      Best,  Terry

      •  There You Go Again - n/t (0+ / 0-)
      •  PS - (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dianem

        So are you suggesting that if someone of a certain cultural/ethnic background says something about a specific history, the cultural background, alone, makes it right?

        Are you suggesting that, despite all of the evidence offered by European American and, more recently, Native American historians about intra-Indian conflict dating back thousands of years - a simple statement that it began during the Civil War made by a person who may be Indian is enough to refute it?  Is that evidence enough for you?  Because if it is, then every argument you may is highly suspect.

        •  No, Of Course Not (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza, dewley notid

          So are you suggesting that if someone of a certain cultural/ethnic background says something about a specific history, the cultural background, alone, makes it right?

          But for some ignoramus to claim an Indian who has spent a substantial part of his life living, studying and writing about the history of his people knows nothing about it is beyond ludicrous.

          A scholar steeped in the history of another culture after a lifetime of study can surely be expected to know a great deal more than the average citizen.

          An anonymous blogger demonstrating his contempt for the knowledge of others who have spent their lives studying the subject is not my idea of a reliable source.

          Best,  Terry

        •  If you're going to make a false appeal to (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza, dewley notid, Tyto Alba

          authority, at least do a better job.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          The first form of the appeal to authority is when a source presenting a position on a subject mentions some authority who also holds that position, but who is not actually an authority in that area.

          Nevertheless, experts can still be mistaken and their expertise does not always guarantee that their arguments are valid.

          But you'll have to direct it here, and I said you misapplied, and I meant "reached its peak."

          "The practice of pitting Indians against Indians reached its peak in the next phase of military activity, the American Civil War of 1861-65."

          She nourishes us; that which we put into the ground she returns to us. Big Thunder

          by Winter Rabbit on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 08:17:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's Not What You Said - (0+ / 0-)

            To repeat -

            Because the "white tactic" relative here is pitting Indian against Indian, which began in the Civil War.

            There a heckuva lot of difference between "BEGAN" and "REACHED ITS PEAK".

            And your little slight is rather interesting given that you seem unable to get even the basic meaning of a sentence correct.  

            I've done graduate study with four leading Native American scholars in the U.S. - some native, some non-native.  Peter Mancall - University of Southern California, Colin Calloway - Dartmouth, Rita Napier - Univ. of Kansas, and my PhD minor field under Paul Kelton - Univ. of Kansas.

            Mancall is internationally recognized:
            http://college.usc.edu/...

            Calloway has published extensively:
            http://www.dartmouth.edu/...

            Napier is a historian with a focus on family and community and has received awards for her teaching of Pawnee culture.

            Kelton is young scholar who is doing groundbreaking work in the field of early Indian epidemiology.

            <<<>>>

            Howza 'bout you?

            •  It was a direct quote from here, (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              capelza, dewley notid, Tyto Alba

              that I wrote this week, notice the date it was posted.

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              Head of BIA Apologized for Genocide (2000)
              by Winter Rabbit [Subscribe] Wed Feb 25, 2009 at 04:40:41 PM PST

              I already answered you below somewhere.

              That doesn't change the fact that you have yet to say something about the content of the diary, that the other side of the story needs to be told. Like, in Native American Studies programs in Oklahoma, the truth about the Washita Massacre isn't taught. Furthermore, I'd expect better behavior from a scholar like yourself. I talk to several online, and they stick to facts sure enough, and would never resort to some of the things I've read from you, the false accusations of racism, and "stick to your flute and incense."

              You don't admit this is ongoing genocide and only seek to discredit. The error I made above I had already written about and should have double checked, been doing this for 7 hours now.

              I will say, that you're either in that field helping or harming of your position or future position.

              You have a responsibility to tell the truth, the whole truth,and you'll never get it teaching others with the attitudes I've seen you display.

              What if you told your professors to "stick to their flute and incense?" That reveals ignorance in itself.

              Some tribes, less so than I'm aware of, use the flute for ceremonial reasons. I have yet to find one instance I could point to specifically. I'd like to see it not in the abstract. Most I've read, such as the Cherokee and the Cheyenne, used it for courting and obviously more so for personal expression now days.

              I don't use incense, I use sage, cedar, and sweetgrass. If you're going to make a derogatory statement about about my spiritual practices, at least don't homonigize them.

              A "scholar" wrote the Bell Curve, so not all "scholars" are humane. Either they avail themselves to both the current research sciences and are connected to the human element of their work, or they don't.

              In your case, I'm not impressed. I think you should write a few diaries and enlighten all.

              I care what work you've done, I was in a room with several famous saxophone players, took lessons from a few. I have my Masters in Music. So what? What have I recorded? Is my work published? Yes, and yes - just never saw a penny, signed a contract I didn't read very well. I asked what you've written.

              I sincerely hope you don't continue teaching colonial education, if you are now; I don't know. So let's take the test. Was there genocide against the American Indian? If so, give me four examples.

              She nourishes us; that which we put into the ground she returns to us. Big Thunder

              by Winter Rabbit on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 09:50:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  See my comment below. (7+ / 0-)

      As for those Spanish records you highly praise, they're based on the time when there were just about 100 in the villages, when there used to be about 10,000. Are they useful? Yes, but that must be kept in mind along with the atrocities they committed.

      And Fort Smith had to be set up to make for a smoother transition, because the Cherokee were being forced on their Trail of Tears into Osage Territory, what's you're point? That there was conflict?

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      First, the Pilgrims landed in Wampanoag controlled land in 1620.



      Norton, Katzman, Escott, Chudacoff, Paterson, Tuttle. "A People & A Nation." Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company. p. 52-53.



      The Pokanokets (also called Wampanoags) controlled the area in which the Pilgrims settled, yet their villages had suffered terrible losses in the epidemic of 1616 - 1618. To protect themselves from the powerful Narragansetts of the southern New England coast (who had been spared the ravages of the disease), the Pokanokets decided to ally themselves with the newcomers. In the spring of 1621, their leader, Massasoit,  signed a treaty with the Pilgrims, and during the colony's first difficult years the Pokanokets supplied the English with essential foodstuffs.

      Yet, where were they beforehand and why did they set sail?



      Norton, Katzman, Escott, Chudacoff, Paterson, Tuttle. "A People & A Nation." Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company. p. 52-53.



      Separatists were the first to move to New England. In 1609 a group of Separatists migrated to Holland, where they found the freedom of worship denied them in Stuart England. But they were nevertheless troubled by the Netherlands' too - tolerant atmosphere; the nation that tolerated them also tolerated religions and behaviors they abhorred. Hoping to isolate themselves and their children from the corrupting influence of worldly temptations, these people, who were to become known as Pilgrims, received permission from a branch of the Virginia Company to colonize the northern part of its territory.

      "American Indian History" comprises Tribal Nations that are all different, and unless you've written a thesis or a doctorate on that, all of them, you have no room to talk. I've posted at Progressive Historians for some time, and everyone knows I'm not a professional historian, so what's your point again, other than you don't seem to like thinking about the fact there was a Policy of Extermination.

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      Source

      Gover recited a litany of wrongs the BIA inflicted on Indians since its creation as the Indian Office of the War Department. Estimates vary widely, but the agency is believed responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Indians.

      Photobucket

      http://scholar.google.com/...

      The last photo from the Fort Smith Historical Society begins by asking a question: "What does it mean to be civilized?" The implication being, the dominant culture was civilized, while the American Indian culture wasn't.

      The 8 Stages of Genocide

      1. Classification:

      ``This agency participated in the ethnic cleansing that befell the Western tribes,'' Gover said. ``It must be acknowledged that the deliberate spread of disease, the decimation of the mighty bison herds, the use of the poison alcohol to destroy mind and body, and the cowardly killing of women and children made for tragedy on a scale so ghastly that it cannot be dismissed as merely the inevitable consequence of the clash of competing ways of life.''

      She nourishes us; that which we put into the ground she returns to us. Big Thunder

      by Winter Rabbit on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 08:40:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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