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View Diary: Ralph's Gift (380 comments)

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  •  And in vitro fertilization (none)
    If its morally wrong to abort a pregnancy even in cases of rape, why should infertile couple be free to wash down the drain 9 or 19 fertilized eggs jsut so a 40 someting couple can have 1 live baby?

    If abortion is to be illegal, so to should ALL in-vitro fertilization be illegal.

    (Now, try and get a majority of Americans to support that!)

    •  I have always believed.. (none)
      ...that forcing an argument to its illogical extreme is a wonderful way of exposing its flaws.
      •  As a Catholic. . . (none)
        I believe abortion is morally wrong. It just isn't the state's G-d D-mn business.

        But flushing dozens of fertilized eggs to allow in vitro bothers me far, far more than letting some poor 17 year old who made a mistake avoid the back alley coathanger abortionist.  

        •  Does the catholic church agree with you? (none)
          They don't even believe in condoms.
          •  Condoms ain't murder. . . (none)
            The priest said, "Please no birth control." He looked at the floor when he said it.

            Then he looked us in the eyes. "But if you must, read about HOW the Pill works."

            There's a difference.

        •  Egg flushing (none)
          I urge you to check out Peter Singer's book "The President of Good and Evil:  Questioning the Ethics of George W. Bush," particularly Chapter 3 on "The Culture of Life" in the first section titled "Life Before Birth."  As he points out there, what you call the "flushing" of fertilized eggs happens millions of times every year in the US.  "They die," he says, "as part of a natural process that has, as far as we know, been going on as long as there have been human beings.  Some scientists estimate that for every embryo that becomes a child, four fertilized eggs fail to make it.  Others think that the ratio is closer to one lost fertilized egg for every child born.  Even on the lower estimate, more than three million embryos die annually in the United States from natural causes." (p. 39)  Then he asks the pertinent question:  "Should we feel that this loss of embryos is a terrible thing, a kind of ongoing holocaust?  If each human embryo is 'something precious to be protected' [as G.W. Bush says and probably congruent with papal pronouncements], then surely that is how we should feel."  At the very least, Singer's discussion illuminates the real complexity of this issue and brings out its political character and structure.
          •  complex, but not contradictory? (none)
            Wouldn't "natural causes" be God's work/judgement, but humans choosing to abort/flush is wrongly & evilly co-opting the work of God.  Only God can judge, especially life & death, that kind of thing?

            Then there's the death penalty which Bush loves...

          •  I dunno about that logic (none)
            Fertilized eggs and/or embryos are often spontaneously aborted.... so, induced abortion is therefore okay.  People who have been born often die of natural causes.  By the logic above, it would also be okay to kill them.

            Or did I miss something?

      •  But... (none)
        Do you think that people would actually see that? I would be inclined to think that many people would not see the flaws and only see the proposals.
    •  Declaring a fertilized egg (none)
      a person is the only path that the anti-abortion folks will accept. Otherwise, state courts will be free to find their own way to a Roe v Wade decision under state consitutions even if the Suprme Court overrules it under the federal.
      •  Heh Heh! (none)
        Okay dude, explain exactly HOW birth control pills work. My priest did when my wife and I were engaged.

        (If you are going to use birth control, find another way, he said.)

        Okay, one package bill.

        No abortion but that also means no in vitro and no birth control pills. I mean we need to be morally consistent, corect?

        •  That is a good idea. (none)
          One of 2 things will happen.  They pass a bill, they get crushed the next election.  They don't pass it and the christians stay home-they get crushed the next election.  its a win-win proposition.
        •  The Morning After pill (none)
          We should press on this big time.  We can put Santorum in our gunsights on this one.
          •  Its the inconsistency. . . (none)
            like crack cocaine vesus powder.

            Rich white kid with powder? Lets look at treatment options;

            Poor black kid with crack? Lock 'em up!

            = = =

            Let Harry Reid do it. He's a Mormon!

            He says:

            "I have long believed abortion and similiar issues were not the government's business even though (like many Catholics) I personally believe such things are immoral. But as Ralph Reed tells us, America has spokeN.

            Therefore I offer this constitutional amendment to define life as beginning at conception and therefore ALL abortion, morning after pills, stem cell research, in vitro fertilization, etc. . . shall become illegal. Nationwide.

            Susan Snowe? Where do you stand?

             

            •  Susan Collins/Olympia Snowe (none)
              Both need to stand and fight for reproducive freedom--or get out of the way!
            •  bluespace is right (none)
              we really really need our dems to do this. force these rethugs out inot the light. it's win-win for us, plus the political whirlwind it will create will drowned out whatever message the rethugs were planning on getting out.

              trouble is, will our "leadership" listen?

              No member of our generation who wasn't a Communist or a dropout in the thirties is worth a damn. Lyndon B. Johnson

              by maskling11 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:27:38 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Moral consistency (none)
          Yep, morally consistent, i.e.,

          Birth control (including condoms) is evil and should be outlawed. Therefore more people will die from AIDS.

          Abortion is evil and should be outlawed. Therefore more women overseas in developing countries will lose funding for family planning, hence will die prematurely from lack of hospital care during childbirth.

          This is the Catholic idea of moral consistency.

          •  Thaxter, learn jujitsu (none)
            Screaming at them has failed.

            Besides, no one is morally perfect. Not even Democrats.

            Punish powder the same as crack. No abortion and no birth control pills and no in vitro. All or nothing.

            Otherwise, the Red State types will cherry pick and outlaw abortions for poor kids while rich suburban-ites quietly swallow morning after pills.

      •  FORCE THE ISSUE (4.00)
        Paul Begala did the other day on Crossfire, and the republican had nothing to say.  He looked shocked.  Let the reds see that they have been sold a false set of goods.
        •  Did he really? (none)
          I usually watch Crossfire, but I've been too depressed to watch any news or political shows since Tuesday.  I don't even turn on the TV, for fear of accidentally catching a glimpse of the smirking chimp.

          What exactly did Begala say on Crossfire?

          "We share half our genes with the banana. This is a fact more evident in some of my acquaintances than others." - Robert Mays

          by randym77 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 03:47:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I thought I was the only one who felt this way!!! (4.00)
      If its morally wrong to abort a pregnancy even in cases of rape, why should infertile couple be free to wash down the drain 9 or 19 fertilized eggs jsut so a 40 someting couple can have 1 live baby?
      If abortion is to be illegal, so to should ALL in-vitro fertilization be illegal.

      (Now, try and get a majority of Americans to support that!)

      Abso-EFFIN-loutely. If a women gets preggers, even during rape or incest and  conceives......one can intrepret that as God's will. Since God was in this election, shouldn't HIS will be done?

      Well the converse is that if you CAN'T have a baby by NATURAL means, that is ALSO God's will.

      If they wanna play this game, we should give it back to them, WITH INTEREST!

      No abortion, no in-vitro, no fertility drugs.....

      Since in-vitro produces stem cells.....and reserach on them is against "the culture of life", the usual method of destroying them (incenerating them) does the same....the answer is produce no more stem cells!

      LOL.....since the public allowed this rabble to choose w/o examinig the whole story....perhaps they will go along qietly w/ this scenerio?!

      •  no viagra (none)
        it is not god's will...no pharmaceuticals. if g*d doesn't provide it in a natural or herbal form, then it is not g*d's will. Shut down all the pharmaceutical companies. No more prescriptions. no more over the counter medications.

        what do you say to the last republican who votes kerry instead of bush so as not to make another mistake

        by demnomore on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:04:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  and the Pill (none)
      The pill works by preventing a fertilized egg from implanting.  Especially the low-dose pills commonly used today.

      So oral contraceptives should also be banned.  Hey, Pat Buchanan wants to ban all forms of birth control, in order to increase the base of taxpayers.  Have at it.    

      "We share half our genes with the banana. This is a fact more evident in some of my acquaintances than others." - Robert Mays

      by randym77 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 03:44:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Life at conception hooey (none)
      The problem with the whole abortion/embryo issue is that the democratic candidate claimed to believe that life begins at conception. Personally, as a moderate, non-religious, democrat-voting independent, I find this a bit of a slap in the face. I have no problem with a religious candidate, but face it, the idea that life begins with conception is an extremist view. Even I had trouble with Kerry's stance on this.

      If democrats are truly going to sell themselves as the party of science, they have to be willing to shun superstition. Otherwise you won't convince anyone.

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