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View Diary: ARIS 2008 shows Numbers of U.S. Atheists and "No Religion"-ists Booming (91 comments)

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  •  I don't love them... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dirkster42

    but I also don't hate them.  This is why I oppose the death penalty.

    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." -Dr. King

    by proseandpromise on Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 11:30:08 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Your religion hasn't been shy about body count (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      adrianrf

      •  No it hasn't... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dirkster42

        but neither has America, or democracy, or atheism, or facism, or communism, or paganism, or hinduism....

        "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." -Dr. King

        by proseandpromise on Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 11:36:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fail (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          adrianrf, teachme2night

          Show me the atheist version of the Crusades or the genocide of the Native Americans.

          I'll save you the trouble. You won't find it.

          You might find secular-slaughterings based on various things, but the motivation is always based on other things, not the championship of atheism.

          •  That is a sneaky way... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dirkster42

            to avoid having to deal with Stalin, Polpot, etc.  They didn't use atheism as a rallying point (how could anyone, ever in history given how few atheists there consistently are) but atheism was a key component of their ideology and they perpetratd acts far more heinous than the crusades.

            Now Christianity suffers the equal and opposite problem (rather than being a significant minority, it has been a majority) - so that it was the public face of more honest motives.

            You don't, for instance, blame "freedom" or advocates of freedom for the war in Iraq.  You rightly blame Bush, neo-conservativism, and the pursuit of oil (I would guess.)

            So, too, when you consider what happened with Native Americans, it would be MUCH more honest of you to blame imperialism and racism than to blame Christianity.

            And unless you are an ex-pat or a native American, than you and I are both beneficiaries of those violent ideologies, meaning that every non-Native American, American citizen is in a direct line of benefiting from the genocide of native Americans.  Christianity as an institution has gained nothing from that horrific behavior.

            So if you want to call anyone today "terrible" because of what happened to Native Americans, it should be all Americans and not Christians, as Christians have not benefited from that behavior, and you should direct your hate toward Americans, who both benefited from that behavior and continue to enact an imperialistic and racist foreign policy.

            "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." -Dr. King

            by proseandpromise on Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 12:02:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  They did not perpetrate those acts in the *name* (0+ / 0-)

              of atheism. That is the difference.

              One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

              by RandomActsOfReason on Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 04:28:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  But, as the "freedom" illlustration points out... (0+ / 0-)

                it is the underlying motives, not the named motive, which matters.

                "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." -Dr. King

                by proseandpromise on Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 06:00:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, the named motive matters as well (0+ / 0-)

                  religion teaches people to accept authority without questioning. As such, it inherently a facilitator of tyranny.

                  Worse, when the authority claims to be serving god, those conditioned by a religious upbringing are even more predisposed to follow.

                  Worst of all, religion provides a rationalization for atrocities that are not rationally defensible.

                  It matters a great deal. People kill one another in the name of religion - usually killing other religious people over sectarian differences.

                  In contrast, there are no recorded instances of punctuated equilibriumists torturing and slaughtering phyletic gradualists, nor of critics of the multiverse theory of cosmology performing inquisitions on advocates of that theory in order to force them to recant.

                  One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                  by RandomActsOfReason on Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 06:57:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This is intentionally naive. (0+ / 0-)

                    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." -Dr. King

                    by proseandpromise on Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 07:49:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That is not a substantive argument. (0+ / 0-)

                      One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                      by RandomActsOfReason on Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 09:01:17 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I've already made plenty of substantive arguments (0+ / 0-)

                        You know fully well that violence is not a result of religion.  The number of historical examples are abundant.  I have no desire to continue to engage this argument.

                        "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." -Dr. King

                        by proseandpromise on Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 09:24:15 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  of course you have no desire. (0+ / 0-)

                          I'm used to that line of retreat from theist apologists. Sigh. If you don't intend to pursue a rational argument, don't present one in the first place.

                          One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                          by RandomActsOfReason on Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 09:31:24 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

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