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  •  Life is a mystery to me... (0+ / 0-)

    And I come at it as a witness full of doubts and ever-evolving theories (beliefs) on what its all about.  Just as some believers in god are uncomfortable with allowing that others can be atheists, my possibly unorthodox atheism troubles your more dogmatic flavor.

    You seem more uncomfortable in your atheism than comfortable in it. You seem to feel something is missing without a supernatural, "spiritual" element. For all your attempts not to judge those who hold theistic beliefs, you seem rather judgmental of those who do not.

    My goal is not to judge anyone, but to live and let live.  To the extent that my words don't fully express that I would appreciate anyone calling me on it and citing what I have said that judges others.

    I can't speak for you, but my life is an ongoing search for what it is all about, and I try to cultivate the humility to appreciate that there are many spiritual paths, and mine flows through a secular, humanistic view of the world, but with my current added belief in the persistence of humn consciousness from life to life.

    Cooper Zale Los Angeles

    by leftyparent on Tue Apr 14, 2009 at 09:32:03 AM PDT

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    •  Interesting the haste with which (0+ / 0-)

      you judge (note the irony) my worldview as dogmatic - despite the fact that I have spoken little if at all about my worldview, my comments were all in response to your presentation of yours.

      I don't see the problem in making judgments. Informed judgments are what wisdom is all about. Judging people based on no data except their dissent from your view, however, is "judgmental" in the negative sense.

      You judge believers to "need" their faith to act morality.

      You judge rational thinkers as "dogmatic" because they reject your worldview in the same way you reject a traditional religious worldview.

      Much of your rhetoric implies there is no right or wrong, nothing is true or false, all ways are equally rational.

      This contradicts your assertions about morality - in fact, they undermine the very basis for a moral code that is not handed down from "above";

      If one cannot judge truth from fiction, good from bad (or at least helpful from harmful), if there are no beliefs that are questionable (except the ones you question), then in fact there is no basis for an independently developed moral code.

      Clearly, I reject that assumption, just as I reject a worldview that aspires to be more "modern" than traditional religion, but still clings to wish-fulfillment and magical thinking.

      There is nothing dogmatic about arriving at conclusions after a life long search. My conclusions differ than yours - and, unlike you, I am more than willing to defend them and engage in open intellectual debate about them. I welcome it, as it helps me hone my conclusions and tests my evidence.

      There is nothing humble in making the kinds of assertions you make. You are trying to reconcile two utterly opposed and incompatible ways of approaching understanding. Many have tried; arguments about nonoverlapping magisteria or the inherent "limitations" of rational thought are nothing new.

      But faith starts with a conclusion and then seeks out evidence that supports it (and rejects evidence that does not). Faith prioritizes feeling over data.

      The scientific method works in exactly the opposite way - letting data lead wherever it may, and arriving only at conclusions logically consistent with that data.

      They don't work together. There is no common criteria to share.

      One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

      by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Apr 14, 2009 at 11:48:36 AM PDT

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      •  Thanks for the extensive post... (0+ / 0-)

        It gives me more things to think about... and it is a good point that I accused you of dogmatism.

        Cooper Zale Los Angeles

        by leftyparent on Tue Apr 14, 2009 at 12:28:17 PM PDT

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