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View Diary: Why Dean can win without the South (321 comments)

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  •  Bigotry (none)
    is unseemly regardless of at whom it's aimed and by whom it's wielded. If The South, in it's monolithic magnificence, has been telling you how to think and live, it certainly doesn't seem to have had much effect. We would have taught you better manners.

    You make several mistakes in your post, allowing your venom to blind you. The religious right does not equate to the South. The religious right is a presence in every region, including our highly civilized coastal regions. Neither are John Ashcroft and his holy rollers emblematic of all Southerners.

    If we win without the South, maybe it will teach them a lesson that they represent only part of America not all of it.

    You do realize that no Democrat has ever won the WH without carrying several Southern sates?  That's never, as you can see here. But somehow I doubt you know this, given the overall tone of your post.

    •  Re: Bigotry (none)
      Which is not to say that it couldn't happen. Your posts make it sound as though winning the south is a pre-requisite to winning, when in fact I would suggest a reverse causal relationship. People who win tend to win southern states because they're successful campaigns, they're not successful campaigns because they win southern states.

      The gist of this entire thread is that we CAN win without the south, not that we should try.

      "If any question why we died, tell them, because our fathers lied." - Rudyard Kipling

      by Marius on Wed Dec 31, 2003 at 05:29:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Re: Bigotry (none)
      It's true that the Religious Right and the rest of their ilk are not exclusively located in the warmer regions of the country.  Idaho, for  example, can be one scary place for a progressive.

      However, I've seen that the Southern states have been targeted successfully by the Republicans, largely on the basis of barely-cloaked racism and openly reactionary social policies.  

      I've also read that some people claim Clark and Edwards are the only electable candidates because they are the only ones hailing from the South.  I've read about Southern voters who refuse to vote for a Northeasterner because "they don't know how to talk to us down here."  The vice presidential candidate discussions always seem to mention the need to "balance the ticket" with someone from the South.

      These people have had far too much influence on us for the size of the country that they represent.  We can win without them, and I would say that it's about time that someone told them that they had to cooperate with the rest of the country.

      •  Re: Bigotry (none)
        However, I've seen that the Southern states have been targeted successfully by the Republicans, largely on the basis of barely-cloaked racism and openly reactionary social policies.

        There's a second component to that success - the absence of counterpoint. The Democratic party has been largely silent in the South for years. It started in '68 with Nixon's Southern strategy and really became almost total in 1980. There's nobody talking to Southern working and middle class whites the way Howard Dean suggests and there hasn't been for years.  The Rs have had a clear field.  That's why I'm begging for this to change.

        I've also read that some people claim Clark and Edwards are the only electable candidates because they are the only ones hailing from the South.  I've read about Southern voters who refuse to vote for a Northeasterner because "they don't know how to talk to us down here."

        Yes, you've read this in the ever-trustworthy SCLM. Why do you believe them on this when you refute almost everything else they say?

        John Edwards didn't help this perception by his grandstanding. John Kerry would have a hard row to hoe here. But it's not because he's a Northeasterner per se. It's becasue he comes across as a patrician (which Dean does not despite his background) and a skinny version of Ted Kennedy.

        Howard Dean will not. The current Democratic Governor of Tennessee is a transplanted New Yorker.  He carried Middle and West Tennessee and made it close in heavily republican East Tennessee.  He has a 75% approval rating. He is a Dean Democrat policy-wise.

        We can win without them, and I would say that it's about time that someone told them that they had to cooperate with the rest of the country.

        No Dem since the Civil War has won without carrying a minimum of 5 states from the Old Confederacy. Sure you can run the numbers, but do you want to take the chance when Bush scored under 53% in 4 states in 2000, three of which have since elected Democratic governors?

        As far as scolding us like bad children and telling us to cooperate with the rest of the country, the South has been on the winning side in every election since WWII.  How is that not cooperating with the rest of the country?  You may not like some of those election results, but to say the South was out of step with the rest of the US isn't borne out by the facts.

    •  Re: Bigotry (none)
      The south still has a deserved bad reputation from it's attempt to preserve the right to hold blacks as slaves 150 years ago. Since the sixties, I fail to see that these states have made a lot of healthy progress away from their racism. I think, as a whole, they are much worse than the rest of the nation. Before you criticise anyone from up north for "bad manners," you need to explain why the south has given us elected officials like Jesse Helms and Tom Delay. And you don't honestly expect me to believe that the religious right doesn't about control most southern states, do you? I'll agree that they've also got footholds in places like Pennsylvania, Indiana, hell, even here in Wisconsin. But outside of its large urban centers, the south is the religious right in America for all practical purposes.
      •  Re: Bigotry (3.50)
        Since the sixties, I fail to see that these states have made a lot of healthy progress away from their racism

        Then you obviously haven't been paying attention. Please try and extract yourself from your own prejudice before posting crap like this.

        Here's a fact out of my first post on this thread which you apparently ignored.  Since 1995, the South is the only region of the country to post net gains in the African American population.  This gain is not coming froman increased birth rate.  It's coming from Northern blacks moving to the South - a reverse Migration.  Do you honestly believe that if the South were no different that it was 40 years ago, when Jim Crow still thrived in many areas, that this would be happening?

        you need to explain why the south has given us elected officials like Jesse Helms and Tom Delay.

        Sure, as soon as you explain why Wisconsin gave us Joe McCarthy. Or why California gave us Bob "B1" Dornan. Or Indiana gave us Dan Burton. Or why Illinois gave us Henry Hyde. Or why Arizona gave us Barry Goldwater. Or why Idaho gave us Helen Chenoweth. Want me to go on?

        The South also gave us Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter and Al Gore (Junior and Senior).  Oh, and Wes Clark and John Edwards. And Lyndon Johnson, who had something to do with the changing racial climate in the South.

        And you don't honestly expect me to believe that the religious right doesn't about control most southern states, do you?

        Of course I don't.  You're too ignorant to believe otherwise.  And you're too proud of your ignorance to try and learn better.

        I would ask you to spend some time down here, but I doubt it would help. Your mind is as closed as those you seek to denigrate. You simply don't have the experience to know what you are talking about. Actually, you'd make a pretty good Republican.

    •  Re: Bigotry (none)
      What me and people like me want is honest government, a balanced budget, elimination of pork and we want our politicians to stop selling out to large corporations and extreme interest groups.  Ordinary Republicans and independents want this as much as Democrats.  Although I disagree with John McCain on most everything, I respect his honesty.

      I want our policians to halt the "WalMartization" of our economy where the middle class is disappearing and being quickly converted to minimum wage slaves.

      I want some sanity in tax policy.  The Republicans have managed to convince the electorate that there is a free lunch and that national debt and deficits don't matter.  If we don't wise up as a nation, we will end up like Argentina, or even worse, like Mississippi or Alabama, last in the nation in almost everything.

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