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View Diary: Israel/Palestine: Rahm Emanuel Lays Down the Law (188 comments)

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  •  Not sure what your point is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    capelza

    beyond the usual personal attacks.

    •  it's that (0+ / 0-)

      you seem to be incapable of expressing anything that admits even the possibility of future good acts by Israel -- your bias reeks, and it's stinking up a decent discussion elsewhere in the diary.

      Of course, my fault for playing into it.  So I'm to blame as well.

      •  Hate to tell you this, but (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza, callmecassandra, Aunt Martha

        there's no reason to believe the leadership of any of the sides is interested in a solution that would spread the pain in a manner reasonably fair to all the peoples involved.

        •  well, abbas/fayyad are ok (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1

          netanyahu and lieberman are assholes but pliable ones -- the US has a lot of cards to play.

          Hamas are from all indications damn near irreconciliable but theoretically a deal could happen involving the west bank that left gaza as a separate matter.  Or they could come to the table.

          Blanket "they're all no good" never achieved anything.  It's funny, after all those years of hating on Olmert I'd think it'd be refreshing for you to have Israeli leadership who are actual assholes, rather than simply well-intentioned incompetents.

          •  Abbas is a nonentity (4+ / 0-)

            with no more power than the Israelis let him have -- that is to say, the power to quash internal dissent.  As for Netanyahu and Lieberman, we'll see how pliable they are.  Hamas is a mess, with the usual realos-vs.-fundis split, but it seems to me the fundis are in charge and likely to make few real concessions.

            Who are these "well-intentioned incompetents" you speak of?  Ariel Sharon, maybe, with whole villages' worth of blood on his hand?  Ehud Olmert, who was blubbering about painful concessions (where have we heard that one before?) while planning an attack on Gaza?  I can at least agree with the "incompetents" part.

            •  internal dissent? didn't he win an election? (0+ / 0-)

              silly propaganda.  he's trying to take care of his people, keeping the peace, appointing a nonpartisan economist PM and getting ahold of whatever aid money he can while you stew about his collaboration.

              you need to quit thinking in black and white.  some people are better than others, it's not just 'good' and 'bad'.

              •  You seem to think that (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza, Aunt Martha, unspeakable

                winning an election precludes the possibility of internal dissent.  Was the vote unanimous? is Hamas just joshing?

                You also seem to forget what a massively corrupt folks Abbas and his party confreres are.  I'm sure you'd notice it more if Abbas weren't such a nice little Pu Yi.  You might even remember his role in the Munich Olympics massacre.  Talk about black-and-white!

                •  hi (0+ / 0-)

                  my name's "third world democratic government", have we met?  i contain a massive patronage system but should be worked with rather than sidelined in general.

                  Do you reject working with the Iranian government because of corruption?

                  •  It all depends (1+ / 0-)
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                    capelza

                    on whether one might reasonably expect positive results.

                    Oh, and considering its rampant corruption, Israel seems to be allowing a bit of that "third world democratic government syndrome" to rub off on it too.  And Lord knows we've been working with Israel.

                    •  so in other words (0+ / 0-)

                      given that abbas is remarkably non-corrupt personally, considering the circumstances, and he's quite often expressed a willingness to work with israel to negotiate settlement removal..

                      so we should work with him?  please consider this blatantly obvious idea in future points.

                      •  umm, if memory serves, (0+ / 0-)

                        Abbas isn't the only leader of the Palestinians right now, like it or not.  And he's expressed extreme frustration with Israeli intransigence in negotiations.  Some negotiating partner. :-)

                    •  also, while i'm at the mythbusting (0+ / 0-)

                      where does the aid money hamas gets go?

                      how are they any less corrupt than fatah, again?

                      by your standards, shouldn't we be encouraging both parties to reconcile so they can be negotiated with as a unity gov't?

                      •  I just want to point out something: (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        capelza, corvo

                        Abbas's son is a millionaire. And he became a millionaire after Oslo. How in Quetzalcoatl's name does the son of a leader of some third-world resistance movement become a millionaire? Do you not find it at all fishy that his riches started coming in after the PLO became legitimate with the West? Also, Abbas's brother isn't doing too shabby either.

                        You can say that Abbas isn't corrupt until we're all dead, but it doesn't make it true. Your search for a good leader among the old guard is a fruitless one. Fayyad is a good guy precisely because he's not an insider.

                        •  you see the news story with abbas's son a day ago (0+ / 0-)

                          he made all his money long before Abbas had much influence.  Abbas, we all remember, didn't get along very well with Arafat, he even quit the government in protest a couple times.

                          Abbas's son is apparently something of a marketing genius and a bit of a monopolist -- graft isn't really necessary for most of that, although I'm sure there was a little involved and the lack of antitrust capabilities on the part of the government matters as far as the monopoly.

                          You read the article?  I liked it, he was like go screw yourself, sure i'll collaborate with Israel, I am a merchant and want to build things, I don't care how.  Hamas fighters are getting Israeli medicare right now, are they collaborators?

                          •  Look, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, corvo

                            I'm not interested in having a repeat argument over this, and I'm not interested in having a conversation about the entirely separate issue of collaboration with the occupation.

                            I just wanted to make sure you were aware of evidence of Abbas's own corruption. Just because he didn't get along with another corrupt person, doesn't mean he wasn't corrupt himself.

                          •  well to make myself more clear (0+ / 0-)

                            It does seem that he's markedly less corrupt than the average, which, all else being equal makes him fine by me.

                            The collaboration thing wasn't really my point, just was funny coming from the son.  It does seem most of his income is business, likely involving some corruption, but most of the money seems to have been made before Abbas was particularly influential.  Not to say corruption wasn't involved, but he was competing on an equal footing with the other corruption seekers :)

                      •  Huh (2+ / 0-)
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                        capelza, corvo

                        also, while i'm at the mythbusting where does the aid money hamas gets go?

                        What aid money does Hamas get?

                        •  it comes from iran (0+ / 0-)

                          and goes to soldier salaries and weapons

                          how's that different from fatah's patronage?

                          •  Well (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            Since we don't know how much it get's from Iran, it's hard to make any claims.  But if the money goes for weapons and salaries (as some almost certainly does), that isn't corruption.  That's not the same as leaders buying million dollar villas.

                          •  woah, it's not? (0+ / 0-)

                            how big do you think that payroll is compared to the villas?

                            what happened to your outrage about the PA salaries?

                            Listen man, the reason Hamas and Palestinians thought that Fatah was corrupt is because there were thousands of soldiers getting paychecks in this patronage system.  That's the same damn thing with Hamas, just the soldiers are better.

                          •  Please stop (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, corvo

                            what happened to your outrage about the PA salaries?

                            Could you once, just once, accuse me of saying something that I actually said.  When have I ever said that PA workers shouldn't get paid?  That's just insane, even by your standards.

                          •  but that's the actual corruption! (0+ / 0-)

                            patronage machines -- those are the real corruption

                            A couple villas, eh, pretty much all the countries in the world except for the G-7 have a few perks for the leaders.  Like anyone begrudges a couple million in that particular bucket?

                            The real corruption in any democratic, pseudodemocratic or oligarchic state is the patronage -- that's where they get their foot soldiers, their propaganda, shows of support, ballot box stuffers.  That applies to the US too, your county probably has a couple do-nothing elected offices with their own little fiefdoms that do nothing except organize politically for more important offices.  Sherriffs are big in Mass, and the Clerk of Deeds position -- both are irrelevant compared to state and local agencies that do the actual work, but politically they're very relevant.

                          •  That's different (1+ / 0-)
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                            corvo

                            You claimed Iranian aid used for salaries and weapons was corruption.  However, one might guess that the Iranian statements that they support resistance against Israel are true, and so some of the money is sent precisely to fund fighters and weapons.

                            In the PA case, corruption takes many forms.  It involves those at the top funnelling off millions (funny how that no long matters to you once its a government you prefer).  It also involves extorting bribes from citizens and claiming perks (like land) for government officials).  It CAN certainly involve salaries for foot-soldiers, but only in the sense that the money was earmarked for something else and was diverted to footsoldiers.

                            No one has ever made the claim Hamas is diverting Iranian money meant for something else (say, clinics) to fund fighters.  That claim is entirely of your own invention.  

                          •  well ok, then since iran (0+ / 0-)

                            and presumably hamas don't pretend to give a crap about hospitals in the first place, that makes it ok?

                            all i'm saying is that most of the fatah corruption was garden variety..  more of it than in many places because of the ridiculously high aid budget, but similar to an oil state, or anywhere where there's a non-economic cash flow.

                            the major difference from hamas is hamas's soldiers are slightly more effective -- in both cases they're funneling a ton of money into a system that only pays off people who are on their team.  you think someone from the wrong family in gaza has a chance at getting onto the hamas payroll?

                            and sure hamas is probably less corrupt.  i'm just saying it's just different levels of the same thing.  hamas's people are out there  shilling for them and taking care of domestic rivals on the public payroll.  

                          •  Well (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo

                            Hamas runs and funds a huge social service network, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.  

                            But as anyone can see, you don't know anything, you're just guessing at random.

                          •  geez louise weez (0+ / 0-)

                            that was such an informative post, damn man, you blew me out of the water

                          •  I've heard estimates of (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            weasel

                            $30-50 million total.  Not annually, but total.

                            Yeah, huge sum there!

                            I'm sure if "unfounded" has better information, (s)he'll provide it. :-)))

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