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View Diary: Best Healthcare in Europe has no public option (145 comments)

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  •  Interesting... (8+ / 0-)

    I'd like to hear from any open-minded supporters of single payer what they think of this.  Less interested in hearing from those who reflectively twitch when they hear the words "single-payer is off the table."

    From what I can tell, single-payer seems to be the best option, and I am suspicious when I hear Baucus or others refuse to consider it.  But if there really is another system that would cover everyone and minimize costs, I'd like to hear about it.

    •  dutch system is 'managed competition' (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zeke L, jxg, Embee, vacantlook, phonegery, jessical

      Hillarycare, basically.  It works -- unlike the US disaster -- but it's a lot more expensive than the French single-payer system, and not much better.  Worse, it's much much harder to sell politically, as we discovered back when Hillary tried....

      Calling the Dutch system "private" is a bit bogus, but calling the German system "private is bogus in the extreme.  The German system is essentially a collection of single-payer government-run systems; which one you're in is determined by various historical accidents (are you a unionized worker?  A management worker?  A business owner? Which state do you live in?).  A small number of people are allowed to get truly private insurance or self-insure, but only if they can prove that they're rich enough.  The overhead of multiple systems means they waste a lot more money than the French, who have single-payer.

      -5.63, -8.10. Learn about Duverger's Law.

      by neroden on Mon May 11, 2009 at 09:00:18 AM PDT

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      •  Yes. neither is really "private" when coordinated (5+ / 0-)

        and heavily regulated by the government. Especially when there is a payroll tax component.

        The lack of a government run health provider/insurer was the main point.  

        Benefits are administered by private contractors.

        "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

        by Skeptical Bastard on Mon May 11, 2009 at 09:03:56 AM PDT

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        •  How is managed competition going to make (0+ / 0-)

          a person who needs to take five or six drugs to stay alive - costing over $1000 a month, profitable at $200/month?


          Public Option is Unproven Experimental Procedure
          We KNOW that single payer WORKS!

          by Andiamo on Mon May 11, 2009 at 09:15:19 AM PDT

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          •  Because in a cooperative society... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Embee, corvo, dansmith17, max227

   decide that this over here is a business and this over here is government and you regulate the hell out of both of them in a way which keeps some set profit flowing, while keeping the whole ball of wax under control.  And never forget the basic goal that nobody falls through the cracks, because it makes things suck for everyone.  You have to live in one, as an American, to believe it :}

            ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

            by jessical on Mon May 11, 2009 at 09:24:01 AM PDT

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          •  Risk equalization (0+ / 0-)

            Insurance companies get compensated by the Dutch government for risky clients.

          •  They need to be taking money from 5 other people (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Catte Nappe, Skeptical Bastard

            who at that point in their lives are paying in $200 a month and not taking anything out, basically everyone who is not pregnant from 10-40.

            The European systems work because EVERYONE pays.

            The US system does not work because if you are young and well you do not pay, and if you are sick and expensive the Insurance companies exclude you, to stop one you have to stop both.

            •  Exactly.. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              denise b

              Everyone needs to pay or it all fails.

              We will never have a working health care system if we allow the healthiest individuals who do not use it much to opt out of the system.

              That is akin to opting out of Social Security until you retire!  It's insane.

              "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

              by Skeptical Bastard on Mon May 11, 2009 at 10:04:49 AM PDT

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      •  Only about $200 more per person than France (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        And they only spend 9.2% of their GDP v.s. France's 11%.

        You can compare what different countries spend here.

        •  Excellent resource (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I remember NPR doing a series on various models, with interviews of people who had experienced both US and another country's systems. I didn't get to hear all of the segments, but of those I did hear there wasn't anybody who said they would prefer the US system.

          "People who have what they want are fond of telling people who haven't what they want that they really don't want it." Ogden Nash (on universal health care?)

          by Catte Nappe on Mon May 11, 2009 at 11:01:05 AM PDT

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    •  Personally (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, SweetLittleOkie

      I am for governement run or single payer, with a shitton of restrictions.  What we don't need is to have the insurance (useless fuckers) industry to have a stranglehold over us.

      There are bagels in the fridge

      by Sychotic1 on Mon May 11, 2009 at 09:23:25 AM PDT

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