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View Diary: Will M..E. Peace => internal values crisis in Am. Jewish community? (299 comments)

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  •  See you need to stop ith the (6+ / 0-)

    same posts and same WRONG argument. Israel is not based on "superiority" and so forth. Maybe that is the way you think but you would be wrong.

    And the "ghetto" of a national state with water rights their own military... How do you justify NEVER BEING ABLE to read when people who support two state solutions post.

    Stop being a bigot - it is ugly. You say you are for equal rights but you use "dog whistle" terms to define Israel - terms that are simply wrong.

    •  Joe's argument makes sense to me. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Arken, Joe Johnson

      Your argument against seems to be

      Let me ask you a question: Why shouldn't the Jews not be allowed a national homeland when every other group in the world has one?

      My answer would be: not every other group in the world has one; the modern world has moved on. The USA was founded on a counter principle of ethnic and cultural diversity, and you love the USA first. A contradiction for you to resolve.

      I don't know about Joe, but I don't have a "people" myself. Really.

      Please don't call Joe or myself a racist for asking this sensible question. Racial or ethnic nationalism really does look racist. Yes, including some of the Europeans etc.

      •  You do realize that almost every other country (4+ / 0-)

        in the Middle East has laws that make all non-Muslims (and sometimes even all non-Arabs) second class citizens, right?

        •  I can't claim to be especially well informed, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Arken, soysauce, Joe Johnson

          but as far as that goes, yes, I would advocate for all nations of the world to observe equal rights for all. Sorry if it feels like Israel is singled out here, but it's the topic of the diary, right?

          To be more explicit: any nation that makes all non-*'s to be second class citizens has a racist policy. Go ahead and illustrate them; I'll agree with you.

          In the two-state solution not only would Israel remain a Jews-first state, but the new Palestine is likely to put into place anti-Jewish laws as well. In my opinion this is a step backwards for everyone.

          Now, where does that leave us?

          •  If it leads to them not killing each other, (4+ / 0-)

            I can't see it as a step backwards.

            •  Less killing is good. (5+ / 0-)

              Justice is good too.

              But the problem I have is that the non-racist approach isn't even on the table. volleyboy1 called Joe a bigot for simply advocating it, and noted how calling for a one-state solution is a dog-whistle for... well, I'm not quite sure what exactly.

              Basically those who work from impartial first principles, principles that the USA were founded on, are knee-jerk accused of bigotry for not going along with the two-state plan... which IS ostensibly racist.

              I think some on the anti-P side of the debate really would prefer a racist Jewish-first state and have argued at length for it. Nobody else can be trusted to protect the Jews, etc etc.

          •  You can't look at it as "Jews First" set of laws (5+ / 0-)

            Because it's not. In Israel proper the only thing Arabs cannot do is serve in the IDF.

            Now is there discrimmination = yep. Are we (or anyone on DKos for that matter) for it? Nope. Do Palestinians serve in the Knesset (the parliment if you are not sure) - yep. Do Jews have a place to escape to in case another Holocaust goes down? Yep.

            Now the territories are a different story and you wont get a whole lot of people on here that support the way Israel treats the Palestinians. In my diary I wrote that the U.S. should suspend aid until settlements stop and Israel is at the table negotiating a two-state solution.

            Meanwhile in One state solution - what happens to the Jews then? There is no where to go in case something bad happens. As mellow as some Palestinians may be here over there the peace movement is still small. Meanwhile Hamas (See wonderous quotes above) could realistically win a Palestinian election. What happens to the Jews then. Would a state that discrimminates against Jews be ok with you folks?

            All of this is a moot point. Israel is not going away, and really no one can make it go away. BUT... it can change its character to make it a pariah state. It has that choice - that is what two states is all about.

            •  Can Israeli Arabs bring (0+ / 0-)

              their non-Israeli Arab spouses to live in Israel?

              Can Israeli Jews bring their non-Israeli Jewish spouses to live in Israel?

              When the camel stumbles, the knives come out. (Arab proverb)

              by Ptah the Great on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:01:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Israeli Palestinians can not bring (0+ / 0-)

                their non-Israeli spouses to live in Israel.  I know personally of a couple of cases.

                The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 11:25:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well then that law should be (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MoshebenAvraham

                  changed.

                  Does that law exist for Non-Israeli Arab citizens of Israel or is it only applicable to the territories? Either way it's wrong but I am just curious.

                  There are bad laws in every country and I am not trying to make light of your examples - But that is one law. AND it sucks for us Jews because what if we (like I did) want to marry outside of our religion? Same thing.

                  •  I should be clear that the non-Israeli (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zannie

                    spouses are Palestinians in the cases I know of.  I don't know if it applies to all non-Jews.

                    More cases of families separated exist in the Occupied Territories.  If a West Banker marries a Jordanian citizen, they can not live in the West Bank.  According to B'tselem, tens of thousands of cases exist.

                    Tens of thousands of Palestinian residents of the Occupied Territories are married to foreign national non-residents. According to this policy, these residents must file a request for family unification to enable them to live lawfully in the Occupied Territories with their spouses. Since the inception of the freeze policy, the only way for Palestinians to live under one roof with their foreign spouses who are abroad is by emigrating to the spouse's native land. This position is primarily dictated by political considerations whose objective is to change the demographics of the Occupied Territories by blocking the immigration of spouses of residents of the Occupied Territories into the area and by encouraging the emigration of divided Palestinian families.

                    The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                    by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 11:40:41 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And that is terrible. There (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      zannie

                      is no good excuse for that.

                      •  The unspoken policy to make life so (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        zannie

                        unbearable in the West Bank that Palestinians "voluntarily" leave.  This policy effects every aspect of life in the West Bank.

                        The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                        by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 11:44:43 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  And as you well know I (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          zannie

                          am very much against how the Israelis conduct Human Rights in the territories.

                          •  It goes beyond human rights. (0+ / 0-)

                            The policy is to get rid of Palestinians in the Territories. Why try to force Palestinians out of the West Bank unless the objective is to continue to control it?

                            The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                            by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 11:57:10 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Again - (0+ / 0-)

                            I agree with you. But, I am against that. I am not sure what to say in response. I think Israel should give up the territories and any policy that further develops them is wrong in my opinion.

                          •  Let's hope, pray even, that Obama (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            can carve out some space for negotiations.  If settlement activities were frozen and road blocks lifted, you would see a different mood among Palestinians.  They are desperate for any shred of hope.  

                            The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                            by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 12:04:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I agree with you 100% on this (0+ / 0-)

                            I am praying like crazy that President Obama can do this. You know how I feel about settlements (remember last diary). I think if Israel freezes activity and takes down the wall as a reward for the P.A. staying out of the Gaza fray that will show the Palestinians good faith. I think it is only right that this happens. And that Israel publicizes that reason. Be peaceful and no more wall. If they do that I think we get negotiations.

                          •  You are well-meaning, but (0+ / 0-)

                            you comment is condescending.  Why do we have to be "peaceful" to be let out our cage?

                            The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                            by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 12:12:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Not meaning to be condescending. (0+ / 0-)

                            Ok but, why is Israel going to negotiate with people that want to destroy it? I am not being condescending - I am telling you what I think will get negotiations going. All I can tell you is that this is what is going to get the ball rolling - and support from the Peace movement and American Jewry and the Israeli left is only going to come under those auspices.

                            It is time for all of us to step back from our pride and sit down and talk.

                            I appreciate that you can see my meaning.

                          •  Look at the Palestinian perspective. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Ptah the Great, callmecassandra

                            Over 1300 Palestinians were killed just a few months ago, most innocent civilians, many, way too many children.  Humanitarian aid is still being blocked from entering Gaza.

                            Do you expect resistance to stop under conditions that Israel has created under occupation?  Totally unrealistic. It would be political suicide.  Palestinians have no other voice.  

                            With international pressure in the form of sanctions, boycott and divestiture against Israel and American conditions on military aid, you will see Palestinian peace movements get traction.   But to pre-condition negotiations on Palestinians being peaceful is allowing yourself to be blind to the terrors of the occupation.  

                            The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                            by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 12:23:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  nuts (0+ / 0-)

              In Israel proper the only thing Arabs cannot do is serve in the IDF

              hello. can they marry a jew without some drastic consequence?

              •  But can Jews marry Arabs legally there (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MoshebenAvraham

                as well.

                That is a stupid ass law that needs to be changed BUT... it cuts both ways.

                Care for another try. Oh and in Hamas territory or the PA are there equal rights for Jews. Like selling property and so forth. Just to clarify. What is your opinion of that? Do you post here about that?....

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