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View Diary: Will M..E. Peace => internal values crisis in Am. Jewish community? (299 comments)

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  •  Legitimate? (0+ / 0-)

    How can you be for human rights if you oppose equal rights?   Are some more equal than others?   Please explain.

    •  How do two independent nations, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zemblan

      which seems to be what most people on each side want, deny people equal rights? We don't have a single world government.

      •  People on each side want? (0+ / 0-)

        When I hear supporters of Israel tell me what the Palestinians want which happens to equate with what they want, I am suspicious.

        Israel is a country where some rights are reserved for Jews.  Non-Jews become second class citizens.   Would you object to such laws targeting Jews in America?   Should Jews be denied certain rights because they are Jews?   Does that line of logic not trouble you?   Why should the Palestinians accept it?

        •  Well I'm sorry if you don't believe (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zemblan, volleyboy1

          the great many various and independent polls of Palestinians which say that they, by a vast majority, want independent statehood. It sucks when reality interferes with your agenda, doesn't it?

        •  Joe - (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Arken, Karmafish, deaniac20

          Let me ask you a question: Why shouldn't the Jews not be allowed a national homeland when every other group in the world has one?

          Also - despite what propagandists say Israel is NOT based on racial superiority - give that card a rest.

          How do you feel when Hamas says this:

          There was no war that broke out anywhere without their (Jews') fingerprints on it

          or

          •"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him..."

          or this little gem:

          The Hamas station, founded in 2006, is modeled on the Hezbollah station in neighboring Lebanon, al-Manar. Al-Manar's children's program shows children wearing explosive belts and images of dying Israeli soldiers, with triumphant chants as background music. Cartoons depict scenes like that of a child blowing himself up near Israeli soldiers, or of a smiling boy flying toward Israel on a missile. Adult viewers can enjoy video clips that use inspirational graphics and rousing music to glorify the act of committing a suicide bombing, while the evening lineup offers family entertainment with a series of films based on the classic anti-Semitic forgery "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion."

          from: http://www.spiegel.de/...

    •  more bullshit from you. (6+ / 0-)

      supporting two nations with equal rights is a perfectly progressive position.  supporting a forced one state solution and that's clearly the only way it can be achieved is not progressive.  Yes, Israel needs to work for greater equality- but then so do dozens of other countries, genius.  Frankly, I find your obsessive hate of Israel, not in the least little bit progressive.  

      two cheers for democracy

      by ClaryinVT on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:37:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Clary (5+ / 0-)

        He is not going to respond - nor will others in the "Israel Sux Caucus". Why.. because he hits and runs with the same post every damn day. Look above  when I ask him for his commentary on Hamas' statements (depending on who you ask - the chosen representatives of the Palestinian people) and how progressive that is and why look..... crickets.

        They don't care what is really progressive it's just "them darn Joos having a state". For them - who cares if the side you are on is blindly racist. As Jon the "anti-zionist" Jew said - you can't be progressive and be pro-Israel.

        He refuses to see we are all against the occupation (well 99% of us) and want a state for Palestinians with equal rights, defensible borders, a reliable watersource, and a Jerusalem that is open to all faiths. None of that matters when you can toss rhetorical bombs and then dash out of the discussion.

        •  in all fairness (0+ / 0-)

          i do think the 2 state solution is an 'in the middle' solution. the one staters are no more on the fringe than the radical right, and we have to deal w/them. by placing the 2 state solution at one end of the spectrum, and the lukid lieberamn crowd on the other amounts to a set up of ratchet effect. besides that it is dishonest. you cannot simply ignore all those people anymore than you can ignore the extremists on the right.

          do we want an inevitiblity of a middle ground being somewhere between 2 sides? if we do then we cannot have one extreme being represented by the 2 state solution. that is the middle ground.

          it serves no purpose to have people on these boards who fling around the hate word and ad hominem someone for voicing a very real concern.

          How can you be for human rights if you oppose equal rights?   Are some more equal than others?   Please explain.

          answer him. don't ask him a question. don't talk about 'joos'. don't chastise him for what you are doing yourself.

          •  We did answer him - read above posts. (0+ / 0-)

            Of course I am for equal rights. And many of us have stated as much. Not only that but - Two-States is pretty much the only workable solution at this point.

            No one is more equal than others so lets toss that back to you. If the area known as Israel - as it is now had a definitive Jewish majority - would you be ok with that?

            •  i would be ok (0+ / 0-)

              with israel being a definitive Jewish majority if an equitable state were negotiated for palestinians. (although this is the antithesis of the way i was raised as a red blooded american). regarding the area known as Israel, i suppose there is a reason israel has not defined its borders so i am not going there in the context of this querie at present because it conflicts w/the concept of 'equitable state'.

              as i stated above i think a 2 state solution is a middle of the road position ie a compromise between the greater israel concept and the ideals i hold as an american (one state).

              i do think if we are going to find an equitable solution need to acknowledge those who fall on the outside range of the spectrum. demonizing people (calling for the destruction of joos yada yada) who hold the ideal of a one state is akin to me telling the greater israel crowd they are genocidal freaks whose paranoia about the past and genocide is irrelvant and this wacko biblical claim to the land is delusional.

              get it? it is non productive in terms of negotiation. i know that. do i think biblical claims are delusional? of course. do i think people should live in the environment of total equal rights regardless of ethnicity? of course. ie, i think i am right and normal and they are just plain wrong.

              but, i want solutions.  i recognize in the present climate what i want is much less likely to come about than a compromise. therefore i am on board w/the middle of the road, the 2 states.

              to be clear, i do not think we should consider this outcome as a compromise between the 2 staters and the greater israel crowd. the 2 states is a compromise between the one state (american ideal) vs the greater israel.

              can you acknowledge that?

              •  Zannie - how is this for a definitive statement (0+ / 0-)

                The "Greater Israel" crowd ARE a bunch of nutjob, wackos. I don't want them anywhere near the negotiating table. Just as I don't want Hamas and IJ near the negotiating table. That is just setting up failure.

                I see where you are coming from - but, talks won't work between either the Greater Israel or the Islamist parties. Why - neither side recognizes anything about the other (nor should they).

                Two states HAS to be the starting point, the mid point and the end point of these negotiations. No ifs, ands, or buts. If they are not - then if I were Israel I would simply walk away. No problem.

                This is not a game nor is it a study in civics. And by the way the One State is NOT the American ideal, because the Palestinian Authority or Hamas does not recognize the same forms of civil law as does the U.S.

                •  The problem with the (0+ / 0-)

                  two state solution is that a majority of Palestinians-- those in the diaspora, in refugee camps and inside Israel--do not receive justice within its framework.  The peace that Israel seeks with two states is simply segregation and it is unjust.  The Palestinian issue started in 1948.  It is primarily a refugee issue.  What is Gaza if not one huge refugee camp?  How does anyone expect a two state solution to hold? It will not give Israel the peace and security it claims to seek.

                  The Palestinians in the camps must be returned to their homeland.  Without that, I'm afraid this conflict will certainly outlive me.

                  The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                  by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 11:19:15 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Soy (0+ / 0-)

                    You are reasonable but, I fear that R.O.R. will not happen. Even as much as I want peace if I were Israeli I would not give it as it would destroy my own state. I think economic assistance would be the make-up for it, and I know while that is not what you would want it is the best that can be done.

                    I fear what will happen if this does not come to pass and I hope you are around to see a peaceful resolution - I think you deserve to see one (from what we have talked in the past - not sure how to make that sound right but I hope you get my meaning).

                    I think the two sides can make it work with American help. If anyone can do it, Barack can.

                    •  not (0+ / 0-)

                      I think economic assistance would be the make-up for it

                      no, it wouldn't quite cut it. i think israel should get ready to put more on the table. like some of the land it has grown accoustomed to. i don't think you can expect to ask palestinians to give up all their dreams while expecting israelis to not give up a wink of the propose palestinian state/land they took illegally. i think the closer we can get to 'equality' the closer we come to peace.

                      •  Well land taken illegally (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        zannie

                        I don't agree with that statement in the following context. I think Israel should return to it's 1967 borders regarding the West Bank and Gaza with either an internationalism of Jerusalem or some modification. Israel has taken land illegally in the territories but, land won in war is not theft of land.

                        BUT.... yeah Israel should compromise land for peace.

                    •  The unrealistic part of your response (0+ / 0-)

                      is that the issue won't disappear with economic incentives.  Do you have any idea how strong the Palestinian cause is among Palestinian youth in the diaspora?  I don't think you can because it is not manifested so strongly in the U.S.  

                      I just returned from a lecture here in Beirut by Azmi Bishara, a Palestinian-Israeli who served in the Knesset and was forced out of Israel on charges of treason to the state.  He is an amazing intellectual and a fiery speaker. The auditorium was filled with over 600 young people who hung on his every word.  The Palestinian cause will not go away with out justice. Each generation seems more determined in my judgment after working on this issue for 20 years.  

                      The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                      by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 11:49:56 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Then I am sorry I do not know what to (0+ / 0-)

                        tell you. No Israeli or part of the peace movement is going to give on Right of Return. It is a sad reality, but, I would not think they will do that to push themselves out of existance.

                        I am sorry if you feel differently. Moreover I am sorry for all the children both Israeli and Palestinian who will suffer for this.

                        •  tweaked narrative (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          soysauce

                          push themselves out of existance.

                          this is a strange word construct. sharing something does not mean you will automatically expire. look at the tenacity of palestinians, if anyone should be 'out of existance' in todays world it would be them, and they are still around.

                          there is no imperative that a home for jews has to mean other people don't live there. this lingo should be banished. the truthful narrative is that israel would be a home for jews and palestininas, not that is would be extinguished. 'out of existance', suicide' this repetition of the death narrative is not helpful because israel has so many nukes it just doesn't ring true.

                          that is like claiming the old south doesn't exist. sure it does, but naturally people prefer the new version better.

                      •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

                        i went to see avraham burg at the jewish community center just recently, you should have heard the applause after he said he was for one state.

                        the youth are much different. that is why i think we should grab onto a peaceful resolution now w/the dinosaurs and trust the youth to make life in their own image when they are in charge.

                        we should have faith in future generations becoming more evolved, not less.

                  •  soysauce (0+ / 0-)

                    i think the totality of this might be an impossibility at this point in time. but i have this faith in people, and i think for the time being, if palestinians at least had a place they could actually have freedom in, a place of their own, along side israel.. it is very likely with the coming generations these two people will be naturally merging to the point where the future may hold a very different outcome. but i am afraid if we hold out for this ideal, nothing will move one iota.

                    •  I'll be interested to hear about your experiences (0+ / 0-)

                      in Palestine and how you feel about this afterward.  The situation on the ground will undoubtedly make you question the viability of two states.

                      The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                      by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 11:51:30 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  i already question it (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        soysauce

                        but it would be vastly an improvement of the status quo. furthermore it could be the most opportune moment in my lifetime to make a change.

                        it isn't in my nature to gravitate towards states that are ethnically pure. i come from the bay area, we merge here. but i can't stand the idea of millions of people living w/no right of determination. there must immediately be a place, a physical place where palestinians can be free. now. if we wait and wait until you get everything you ask for you may be passing a window of opportunity that may not come around for decades more. of course it would depend on what kind of sovereignty. anything less than a real soveriegn country would just be window dressing.

                        •  Amen. Safe travels. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          zannie

                          The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                          by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 12:26:38 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  thank you (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            soysauce

                            i am giving it my all. i really hope israel allows me to enter also. i am really wanting to go to both countries and work w/peace people there some who i have met here. i believe we are close to a tipping pt and resolutions are forthcoming.

                            anyway, if they don't let me enter, if i have to buy a new ticket and throw away my tel aviv return i may fly from beruit. maybe we will meet!

                            i'm going to see obama in cairo!

                  •  what do you mean exactly? (0+ / 0-)

                    a majority of Palestinians-- those in the diaspora, in refugee camps and inside Israel--do not receive justice within its framework.  The peace that Israel seeks with two states is simply segregation and it is unjust.

                    a sovereign palestinian state would be able to determine who lived there just like israel gets to decide right? israel could not prevent a diaspora palestinian in beruit from returning to the  palestinian state i presume.

                    what would be the point of having a palestinian state if dispora palestininas couldn't live there?

                    •  Palestinian society is primarily (0+ / 0-)

                      family and clan based.  We come from a particular place, city, village and our large extended families lived in the same place.  Many of the refugees are the poor farmers from small villages.  They need to be allowed to farm their land and recreate their family structures.  Do you know that each of the refugee camps are mainly made of people from the same family/village?  

                      The negotiations between the PA and Israel do not ask for the input of the diaspora or those inside.  What happens to Palestinian Israelis in a two state solution?  Are they expected to move from their native homes inside Israel to take up residence in the new Palestinian state?  They are not going to.  What about their civil rights inside Israel.  That issue not part of negotiations.

                      My voice and others in the diaspora are not part of this "peace process".  It is being imposed on us by Israel and the West to get Israel a solution. It is not a Palestinian solution.

                      The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                      by soysauce on Thu May 14, 2009 at 08:26:46 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  soysauce (0+ / 0-)

                        Do you know that each of the refugee camps are mainly made of people from the same family/village?  

                        i didn't know

                        The negotiations between the PA and Israel do not ask for the input of the diaspora or those inside.

                        that would be fraught w/problems, of course they should be included.

                        What happens to Palestinian Israelis in a two state solution?

                        i wonder how many israeli politicians are indicating this would part of any plan? it just seems like it would exacerbate strife to the max. i would imagine they would try to bargain wrt the settlers which is part of the MO of cramming them in there as fast as humanly possible.

                        there's no doubt about it, the whole thing is a big clusterfuck.

                        It is being imposed on us by Israel and the West to get Israel a solution. It is not a Palestinian solution.

                        i guess i see the current status as an either/ or. either try to find a way w/2 states(the compromise), or a continuation of the occupation. i would love nothing more than one whole non racist state, but i'm not hearing any politicians (except the ex politician avraham burg) talking about this. there are lots of people in the peace movement who want one state but it is hard for me to fathom the monolithic israel ever going for this. i will continue speaking my mind and support the ideal whenever i can, but given the options do you think it is better to not compromise and hold out for a one state, given that the likelihood the occupation and settlements expansion would just escalate during the time period between now and when an eventual one state deal may be worked out.. in possibly decades?

                •  okay (0+ / 0-)

                  let's back up. when i say 'the ideal' i am talking about my own little zannie idea of what i think is the best way for people to live on this planet. the ideal. my ideal. ideologically i am that far out on the spectrum, but my wish for a solution that will work motivates me more than my ultimate wish to be fulfilled.

                  Two states HAS to be the starting point

                  i hate to break it to you, but life doesn't work like that. if every negotiation started with the outcome there would be no need for negotiation.

                  if we are going to start w/2 states then israel should start drawing up the papers,  the palestinians come to the table a/a state, and then go to the table and figure out the format in which those 2 states will engage eachother. get it? there are not 2 states and that is not where we are starting. try telling bibs he has to come to the table w/the acknowledgement of 2 states? hello. last i heard he isn't on board w/this concept.

                  out here in the REAL world people start negotiations from the positions THEY ARE CURRENTLY IN. as in from where ever they are AT PRESENT. then you say something like..tell you what, i don't like you saying you are going to kill all the jews, and the other side says, ok maybe we won't say that if you agree to give us a state, and one side says ok, then the other says, ok, then you go from there and israel says ..you can have a state but we want to control all your resources and your sovereignty but you get to pick the flag..(divert, couldn't help it)

                  how about if the US told the israeli governemnt they would not be allowed at the table unless they agreed to 2 equal states? (not going to happen, just hypothetical) what if the US says fine then, we will just deal w/the palestinians and you can get whatever we agree on.

                  sound good? i didn't think so. the fact are that both sides have these extremes and we must deal with them, usually by giving them something they want in exchange for the other side giving up some of their goals. you are expecting us to grasp the mental concept of a one state being a suicide for jews, and yet you do not understand that for palestinians taking away a right of return is a suicide for them.

                  it is an unequal understanding of the gravity. as if jewish fears of extinction are more logical than palestinians. and israels got the upper hand.

                  i am asking you to acknowledge the gravity of both ends of the spectrum and understand to the people they represent they are equiviliant. this is about respect. when you can acknowledge you enemies pain and their position you can find a place to compromise, or see that it is a compromise by both.

                  you can't start at the compromise unless both parties are already there, and they aren't. last i heard.

                  •  Ok - backing up here (0+ / 0-)

                    Zannie, you said:

                    if we are going to start w/2 states then israel should start drawing up the papers,  the palestinians come to the table a/a state, and then go to the table and figure out the format in which those 2 states will engage eachother. get it?

                    I think this is EXACTLY what should happen!

                    I also agree the U.S. should tell Israel what the conditions of it's aid is going to be.

                    Both parties are not there - and they need to be otherwise this is going to be far, far, worse.

                    •  oh my god (0+ / 0-)

                      maybe we agree on something

                      I think this is EXACTLY what should happen!

                      yeah man, wouldn't this be the place to start. like i said, we aren't there yet. wish we were.

                      then maybe some trade offs could be worked out over those illegal settlers vs some returning relatives.

                      I also agree the U.S. should tell Israel what the conditions of it's aid is going to be.

                      personally i think the US should make clear what its aid is NOT going to be if they don't take this seriously.

                      and the international community could start making plans to flood the palestine state w/aid and more. this  nation would need some serious kick starting, and i can imagine lots of concerned people wanting to lend a helping hand.

                      also, i am not on board w/liebermans concept of a palestinian state. not at all.

                      •  Holy Crap (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        zannie

                        We may agree on more than you think! I am not on board with Liebermans concept either. See my comment on 1967 borders. Remember Lieberman is not mainstream despite what folks at DKos say. They are not a majority party although I fear that if Hamas keeps gaining ground they will grow.

                        However, if Israel sees a large Palestinian Peace movement - I think you can bet your bottom dollar that Israel moderates.

                        ALSO, I agree with your comment regarding a kick start for the Palestinian state. Big time. It can only help.

                •  btw (0+ / 0-)

                  the Palestinian Authority or Hamas does not recognize the same forms of civil law as does the U.S.

                  neither does israel, obviously. re land sales, marriage, a whole cadre of things.

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