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View Diary: Will M..E. Peace => internal values crisis in Am. Jewish community? (299 comments)

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  •  I happen to know that the Bush administration did (0+ / 0-)


    •  Hmmm then I have a lot of questions (0+ / 0-)

      if you know what the Bush admin. did and did not do about this.

      But whether or not Bush approved - Israel needed to do something about Hamas strikes. I don't agree with how far it went, but, I do agree with the general idea behind "Cast Lead".

      •  Israel did need to act, and they forgot their (0+ / 0-)


        They must be reminded.

      •  the hamas strikes (0+ / 0-)

        were not occurring during the ceasefire until israel invaded gaza on nov 4th (nyt headline said 'israel breaks ceasefire', it was our election day and goes unnoticed, maybe you think israel wasn't considering the US election in their timing, but i doubt it) under the pretense they allegedly had intellegence hamas was going to kidnap soldiers. cough. another alleged 'pre emptive' strike that killed multiple hamas security forces.

        Israel needed to do something about

        did hamas need to do something about israel invading and killing 6 people?

        this whole 'reaction' mustification can go on forever.

        I do agree with the general idea behind "Cast Lead".

        and what about resistance to 60 years of refugee status and occupation, do you agree with the general idea behind that? and what if the real 'general idea' behind operation cast lead was more akin to 'do as much damage to gaza while the cheneyco/neocon  permission slips are still handed out lavishly prior to the arrival of a new american administration who will likely push israel to negotiation'. what about that 'general idea'.

        because if the 'general idea' was stopping hamas strikes, israel acted in bad faith by planning this invasion during the ceasefire and had an incredible stroke of good luck by getting this 'intellegence' of the alledged kidnappings just in time to carry out their invasion on schedule.

        just saying. i think your 'general idea' was generated in some propaganda think tank as opposed to the outcome, which was massive destruction carried out by 100's of bulldozers with lends itself to the concept the general idea had more to do w/uprooting villages of farmers and wiping out lots of UN infrastructure and schools etc.

        •  oh, and killing palestinians /nt (0+ / 0-)
          •  Oh and when were they supposed to plan (1+ / 0-)
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            it - when Hamas was busy capturing soldiers? What the hell do you think Hamas is doing during a cease fire. They wouldn't be rearming would they?

            Of course they were planning Cast Lead during the ceasefire. They would be stupid not too.

            •  hmm (0+ / 0-)

              when Hamas was busy capturing soldiers? What the hell do you think Hamas is doing during a cease fire. They wouldn't be rearming would they?

              well, we won't ever know now will we. israel saw to that. israel has captured how many palestinians? thousands are languishing in jails and they start a invasion in gaza over alleged 'intelligence' about a 'kidnapping'. whose intelligence? intellegence garnered from torture? i mean really, this false flag is the oldest game in the book. who gained? israel.

        •  Sure.... (1+ / 0-)
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          Let's let Hamas shoot rockets randomly into S'Derot day after day. I mean you have no problem with that right??? And during the ceasefire there were only 4 per month instead of a lot more.

          I think Israel went too far in during Cast Lead - the use of WP is wrong. The wide scale civilian desolation was wrong. BUT... Can you honestly tell me that if Hamas did not have as it's state goal the destruction of Israel AND rockets were not coming out of Gaza that Cast Lead would even have happened. AND if you say yes - why didn't it happen in the West Bank?

          •  according to the Intelligence and Terrorism (0+ / 0-)

            Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center (IICC) website

            Situation on the Ground (As of November 5, 1700 hours)

            1. It was the first time since the lull arrangement went into effect that Hamas participated in firing rockets into Israel . It was also the first time that the terrorist organizations attacked Israel with massive amounts of rocket and mortar shell fire (until now there were occasional violations of single rockets or mortar shells being fired).

            IOW, on november 5th, the day after israel broke the ceasefire (after planning the invasion since june) hamas reacted.

            Hamas blasts militants who break truce with Israel

            check out these graphs and read the text

            note the nov 4th date , the way this gov site places that pink box there w/that info. nov 4th.

            huff po

            graph from The Israeli consulate in NYC

            Figure 2. For conflict pauses of different durations (i.e., periods of time when no one is killed on either side), we show here the percentage of times from the Second Intifada in which Israelis ended the period of nonviolence by killing one or more Palestinians (black), the percentage of times that Palestinians ended the period of nonviolence by killing Israelis (grey), and the percentage of times that both sides killed on the same day (white). Virtually all periods of nonviolence lasting more than a week were ended when the Israelis killed Palestinians first. We include here the data from all pause durations that actually occurred.

            Thus, a systematic pattern does exist: it is overwhelmingly Israel, not Palestine, that kills first following a lull. Indeed, it is virtually always Israel that kills first after a lull lasting more than a week.

            The lessons from these data are clear:

            First, Hamas can indeed control the rockets, when it is in their interest. The data shows that ceasefires can work, reducing the violence to nearly zero for months at a time.

            this invasion was timed for the israel election. it was going to happen irregardless of what hamas did, or did not do.

            why didn't it happen in the West Bank?

            because israel's narrative right now is hamas equals terror.

            perhaps you should check out hama's rise to power

            maybe, just maybe you should consider some of the radicals in israel might be complicit in creating a false narrative for the express purpose of thwarting resolution before it begins.

            do you ever even ask 'what if' wrt to this possibility. it fits perfectly w/the whole concept of not allowing press into gaza. if israel were transparent it would be one thing, but they are not.

            it doesn't serve you to believe everything the idf tells you, not after the extensive hasbara campaign accompanying the war that was documented in the press. the on message. and you seems to fall for it hook line and sinker.

            there ARE people who are working towards thwarting peace. if you really want a resolution you should arm yourself w/ammo against these people, they aren't all on the hamas side of things. the most power in the dynamic is coming from israel, they have the control and the motive, don't assume everything they tell you is true, not when the evidence points otherwise, be astute.

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