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View Diary: Will M..E. Peace => internal values crisis in Am. Jewish community? (299 comments)

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  •  Did you read what Hamas said above (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    deaniac20, zemblan, MoshebenAvraham

    If you were Israel would you negotiate with that!!!!

    Unless Hamas changes it's "kill the Jews attitude - or "we will only negotiate a 10 year truce". You are dooming yourself to endless conflict, which in the end will end up with a situation that you might not like.

    Here is an opportunity - drop the "Jew hating" rhetoric - enter into permanent peace negotions. Why not?

    Should the U.S. have tried to settle with the Nazi's through negotiation? Of course not!

    The P.A. is taking a positive approach I am demanding the Israelis negotiate with them.

    Oh and by the way since you are so high on human rights - how do you reconcile the Hamas positions stated above with your position on Human Rights? And why has no one answered that question yet.

    •  Why not? (0+ / 0-)

      because setting preconditions for negotiations is a non starter.

      Unless Hamas changes it's "kill the Jews attitude - or "we will only negotiate a 10 year truce". You are dooming yourself to endless conflict

      uh, i believe that would be the case if only if they came away from the negotiations without changing their position. that, you see, is the point of negotiations. both sides reve up w/all their ammunition. obviously israel did everything they could to damage the negotiation process by their little pre negotiation slaughter. you are not ' dooming yourself' for anymore endless conflict than you would be by not negotiating at all. this is just rhetoric. besides, i think it is very clear israel is a hypocrite by attaching itself to this  "kill the Jews" excuse to evade negotiations when they have gone a long long way toewards  "kill the Palestinians" in their MO.

      Oh and by the way since you are so high on human rights - how do you reconcile the Hamas positions stated above with your position on Human Rights?

      it sucks. why do you ask?

      •  I ask because it is a credibility (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        deaniac20

        issue. If you are just against Israel but, you give Hamas a pass - then any criticsm you have is not credible.

        Now let me ask you this..... Say, in the Palestinian elections - the majority of people vote for and elect Hamas. How would you feel about them voting for an obviously racist group to represent them? Would you support their cause as ferverently? If so, why?

        •  hello? (0+ / 0-)

          i am not against israel and i resent you prefacing your context in this fashion. i am for pro peace. i have already stated my willingness to advocate for compromise between what i feel is the ideal (one state) because i recognize the significance of what many israeli jews feel, in their hearts. their desire for their own state. this is not something i even think is necessary because i live amongst jews and they seem to be all integrated in my environment. furthermore i don't ever think in terms of needing a 'safe country' where i won't get exterminated, especially since it actually makes it easier to exterminate people when they are all in one place. but whatever. israel is not just some place on a map, it is full of people (like palestine was full of people), and i am not 'against' 'them'. i actually BELIEVE the untenable situation israel has chosen for itself wrt the indigenous people of palestine for the last few thousand years does not serve its best interest in terms of survival, or have you not noticed how pissed everyone is w/israel lately. stocking up the ammo is not the most favorable MO.

          are you familiar w/aspops fables? Kindness effects more than severity

          Now let me ask you this..... Say, in the Palestinian elections - the majority of people vote for and elect Hamas. How would you feel about them voting for an obviously racist group to represent them? Would you support their cause as ferverently? If so, why?

          you mean how would i feel about palestinains voting for a lieberman character?

          ok, let me be clear, i will be ferverently advocating for a equitable solution between israelis and palestinians no matter who either group votes for.

          if the chosen leaders determined the options for peace all israel would have to do is keep killing off all the potential palestinian leaders, and then stall the process forever. then where would the people be?

          bibs formed a friggin government w/a racist and the US is still talking to israel for christs sake. you go to the table w/the leaders you have, not the ones you want.

          for the most part people don't elect radical leaders unless they fear the situation is radical. that's why their needs to be outside mediators. you have to trust the people on the outside of the process have your best interest at heart, have everyones best interest at heart. you have to believe in the goodness of mankind.

          •  I don't believe in the goodness of mankind - (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            deaniac20, MoshebenAvraham

            As James Madison said (to paraphrase): "If men were angels there would be no need for governments, but..."

            I have told you before and I will tell you again - Bibi's government disgusts me ALMOST as much as Hamas. Because if Hamas wasn't there - Bibi wouldn't be there.

            Since you are not Jewish you have no idea what it feels like. Sorry, but after a few thousand years I don't trust anyone to look after our peoples safety. Look I am loyal to the U.S. above all. My father served in the Army - I tried to but, the vision in my right eye is not good enough. But, I know that if something went terribly wrong here I would have a place to go - Israel. In life things can go terribly wrong you have to have a plan for it.

            You answered a question with a question and not an analogous one at that. Liebermann got less than 20% of the popular vote - Hamas got over 50%. Anyway, so next point.

            •  you said this (0+ / 0-)

              Sorry, but after a few thousand years I don't trust anyone to look after our peoples safety.

              i believe it is 'your people' who will be thinking of israels saftey when they choose a more evolved road to security than stocking up on ammo.

              finding alternatives to violence IS looking after your people's safety. i trust jews will do this. the jews in the peace movement. even you.

              i do not believe you don't believe in the goodness of mankind either. how could you go on living not believing man is basically a good being and seeks peace. most people do, for certain.

              •  Interesting .... (0+ / 0-)

                At least we are speaking civilly now. Which is good! I simply think Jews need a homeland. Do we as people need to be respectful of others - absolutely, just as they need to be respectful of us.

                I hope violence is never needed but, it is always important to be prepared. Work for Peace but Prepare for War - truer words have never been spoken regarding the Palestinian - Israeli conflict.

    •  btw (0+ / 0-)

      yeah, it would be so lovely if hamas stood up before negotiations and cheered about how they didn't want any jews to die and israel made a marvelous speech about the equal rights for palestinians yadyada but it aint gonna happen.

      bottom line, people are tired of all the excuses israel throws up as a pretext for why they keep stalling the peace process. it just aint gonna fly anymore.

      reaction schmeaction. come to the table. it's just talks, they aren't planniong on murdering anyone at the table. look at it this way, how can it make it worse? instead of kill all the jews maybe they will say kill all the jews and forbade them a place in heaven? i mean seriously, get off it. cut w/the crap. israelis have continually killed more palestinians that vice versa.

      i'm sick of words, lets look at the deeds. israel is as guilty as anything you can drum up for pals by a long shot. your narrative stinks.

      If you were Israel would you negotiate with that!!!!

      i'd sure as hell give it my best shot.

      Should the U.S. have tried to settle with the Nazi's through negotiation?

      are you implying the palestinians should not try to settle thru negotiation w/israel?

      •  LOL did you just compare (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MoshebenAvraham, thebluecrayon

        Israel to the Nazi's?????? Fuck you.

        •  hey (0+ / 0-)

          don't like the taste of your own medicine?

          you are implying hamas is like the nazis. they aren't. quit it w/the holocaust false equiliancy. and grow up w/the swearing.

          seriously who do you think you are blathering goodwins law in the context of palestinians. the very same palestinians who are living for 60 years being controlled by israel? and you tell me to fuck off? dude, if you can't take the heat, don't light the friggin match.

          •  Turn up the heat - I can roll with what (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MoshebenAvraham, thebluecrayon

            you can bring.

            Let me ask you if those quotes above from Hamas remind you of anything said by the Nazi's. Don't answer with a question - let me know what it is you think of that.

            I won't swear anymore - I can promise you that BUT.... False equivalency with the Holocaust?? Hamas has in its charter to kill all Jews. How is that false equivalency?

            •  here's how (0+ / 0-)

              Hamas has in its charter to kill all Jews. How is that false equivalency?

              well, for one thing they do not have the access or ability to kill all the jews. they don't have a huge army like hitler did. they have no means. it takes alot more than ideology to lead to the kind of slaughter to are referencing. the kind of means that israel has for expample. now if you took the means of israel and the rhetoric of hamas you might get somewhere close to resembling the potential of nazis.

              furthermore the actions of israel, coupled w/the conditions of control over the territory make israel a better candidate for the role, IF one were to make that comparison, which i most definitely would avoid  initiating in a dkos conversation because it is a show stopper and doesn't lead us anywhere. plus, there are probablt quite a few jews in israel who would be on board w/killing all palestians, so just shutting up about it doesn't make it go away.

              if those quotes above from Hamas remind you of anything said by the Nazi's.

              you know, i think i will spend some time pondering how israel nurtured hamas at the beginning when they needed them to bring down the plo. the usefulness of that kind of rhetoric in terms of demonizing the enemy is very powerful. hmm, wasn't palestine a rather secular communtiy before hamas came along? you know, i don't see how beating this dead horse will further the dialogue. lets just say we have to deal w/extremism because the situation is extreme.

    •  just admit it (0+ / 0-)

      you are not all for doing everything possible for peace, at all.

      •  By your standards No by mine Yes. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MoshebenAvraham

        Why do I say that - because by my standards committing suicide is not a possibility even though it would bring peace. But for you - that seems to be an option.

        Oh and here is an interesting thing: Yeah Hamas does need to stand up and renounce its charter. And Yeah Hamas does need to back off comments of well we will make peace now but, eventually we will get the land back.

        Who the hell negotiates with that? Are you high beyond belief for even thinking the Israelis should sit down with that?????

        On the other hand - I think the P.A. is making very reasonable requests of Israel as a pre-cursor to negotiations. Hmmm, how does that work with your theories?

        •  committing suicide? (0+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          Hidden by:
          thebluecrayon

          drama queen. israel w/its hundreds of nukes. go read the hasbara handbook under the laws of propaganda re 'fear'. on a one to 10 scale what are the chances hamas can kill all the jews? about  negative100. suicide? double yawn

          I think the P.A. is making very reasonable requests of Israel as a pre-cursor to negotiations. Hmmm, how does that work with your theories?

          the PA, you mean the president whose elected office is in the past tense? well i think if palestinians had a say in which israelis they would be negotiating with there would a strong possibility  of israel making very reasonable requests of palestininas as a pre-cursor to negotiations. that's how that works w/my theories.

          •  The "Hasbara Handbook" hmmmm. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            deaniac20, MoshebenAvraham

            what is that pray tell. Actually that is the second time someone has mentioned that on this site. The last was a serious anti-semite (anti-Jew). What is this book? Seriously.

            •  just google (0+ / 0-)

              hasbara handbook, it will be the first link. read about errant equivilants and point scoring. it is passed out by groups Defending Israel on Campus. it trains a person how to argue. here "How to score points whilst avoiding debate". there are many tactics just for diversion. obviously not everyone using those talking pts are engaging in propaganda on purpose. but certain narratives get picked up and then become mainstream. they are show stoppers. an errant equivilant is taking one situation and imposing the narrative on another so the reader will come to the same conclusion, except the circumstances are not applicable. the book teachs you how to do this as a form of argument.

              the whole purpose is to drag out a conversation without resolving anything, like ad hominem attacks which it also advocates. all these things hinder solutions and just make a 'winner' in a debate rather than actually finding common ground which is what people of good faith do.

              so if you read the book you can make sure NOT to use those slogans and tactics.

              just because someone who could be a racist points out a technique is from the handbook doesn't mean it isn't true. definitely read the 7 rules of propaganda. but i recommend the whole thing. the rhetoric is unmistakable here, all over the place. but you arn't one of them as i can tell from your ideas. nonetheless the idea of 'push for extinction' is over the top and they say things like this all the time.

            •  It is Zannie and others' conspiracy theory (2+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              sofia, blueness
              Hidden by:
              zannie

              that all of us Jewish, pro-Israel posters are using tactics from some handbook of tactics to disrupt conversations.

              Or at least that's what I've gotten from Zannie's posts as I patently refuse to go read it.

              •  proof? (0+ / 0-)

                that all of us Jewish, pro-Israel posters are using tactics from some handbook of tactics to disrupt conversations.

                all???? proof? you cannot even prove i accuse volleyboy of this can you?

                and you refuse to read it. lol, and that somehow supports your argument?

                denial should be your middle name.

          •  HR CT repeated pattern of it nt (2+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            sofia, blueness
            Hidden by:
            zannie
            •  explain? (0+ / 0-)

              is it against the dkos rules to repeat something? what is CT?

              •  People have explained this one to you before (2+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                sofia, blueness
                Hidden by:
                zannie

                CT = conspiracy theory.  It is a conspiracy theory to keep posting over and over again how Jewish posters are taking directions from some Hasbara handbook most of us here had never even heard of till you posted it at DKos.  You've got one wild imagination if you think that's what's going on.  

                There is not some secret society of Jews plotting to interrupt conversations here, so give it a rest.  It's ugly, unnecessary and most importantly false.

                •  wrong (0+ / 0-)

                  It is a conspiracy theory to keep posting over and over again how Jewish posters are taking directions

                  i did not suggested he was was taking directions. i mentioned what he was saying was in the book. in fact 2 hrs before you posted i posted this:

                  obviously not everyone using those talking pts are engaging in propaganda on purpose. but certain narratives get picked up and then become mainstream.

                  and this:

                  but you arn't one of them as i can tell from your ideas. nonetheless the idea of 'push for extinction' is over the top and they say things like this all the time.

                  volleyboy1 actually moves thru ideas, not the same as spamming a diary. furthermore it is rather amusing you call it a 'conspiracy theory' when the first thing on the top of the World Union of Jewish Students website is "join our rapid response network' with a link to giyus (download megaphone) w/the goal of having '100,000's" of bloggers for israel. one would have to be daft to think they wouldn't be on the most trafficed political blog in the US, or post on the I/P diaries. thats common sense. there is a conspiracy all right, and you can read all about it in their instruction manual.

                  furthermore the instruction book is not just for

                  Jewish posters

                  . it is for supporters of israel, which could be christian zionists for all i know. or karl rove, or anyone w/the agenda of pt scoring for israel, ad hominem, strawmaning it or any of the other distraction devices continually used by the anything isreal crowd, which is not exclusively jewish by any means.

                  go ahead, HR me. i don't care. you're just protecting a propaganda device because it serves your ptv. justifying it as 'conspiracy' when you know damn well i have provided links.

                •  PS (0+ / 0-)

                  speaking of conspiracy theories i brought up the fear tactic because volleyboy1 alleged israel "committing suicide" was an option for me! what is that but CT? and how many times do we hear crazy crap like that? bwwwwahhh. i called him a drama queen. here is what i said

                  drama queen. israel w/its hundreds of nukes. go read the hasbara handbook under the laws of propaganda re 'fear'.

                  this is programming. anyone can be raised w/this constant paranoid programing. i am here in good faith, i defended my position after being accused of supporting israel suiciding itself.

                  take your paranoid delusion position steeped in DENIAL and see who exactly was engaging in a conspiracy theory in this exchange, cause it sure as hell wasn't me. my directing him to read a link was supported by the reality at the links.

                  fuck megaphone, fuck the instructional manual. rapid responder DO conspire. that is not a theory, that is fact.

                  •  I will not be engaging with any argument (0+ / 0-)

                    you have for promoting this conspiracy.

                    •  lol, you mean "committing suicide" (0+ / 0-)

                      that's a relief!

                    •  btw (0+ / 0-)

                      outing something is not promoting it. it is exposing it. you don't like it? write the people who produce it. call people out when they use false allegations, ad hominems, the bandwagon effect, false narratives and every other trick IN THE BOOK.

                      •  In the interest of exposing (0+ / 0-)

                        what could at best be termed an "obsession" but appears to be something darker and more sinister given some of these posts make direct accusations (like calling Karmafish a "hasbara specialist" in example #8), make allusions to some sort of point scoring like there is an Uncle ZOG door prize or something, and insinuate that pro Israel posts from newspaper sites to blogs are manipulated for dark propagandist purpose by Teh Eevul Ziobarafone™.

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                        Sweet, innocent zannie.  It's a shame you would be HR'd for simply exposing this deep, dark, secret cabal since you would never accuse anyone of being an operative or anything.

                        If you lived here, you would be home now!

                        by arielle on Sun May 17, 2009 at 11:34:47 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

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