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View Diary: Why Obama Is Wrong On The Abuse Photos (117 comments)

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  •  We do? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nokkonwud, Fairy Tale

    So we know the War Crimes that have been committed and yet we still won't do anything to bring anyone to justice?

    Wow, maybe we are that corrupt, complicit, lacking in integrity and in disagreement with the rule of law and our own Constitution.

    Wow, we really suck.

    •  And releasing photos... (0+ / 0-)

      will change that how exactly....?

      All of a sudden AG Holder will appoint a SP and GWB/DC will be arrested because of a few photos that AG Holder probably has already seen...common'

      Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

      by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 08:32:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This country was meant to be "for the people... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nokkonwud, Fairy Tale

        of the people, and by the people".

        You assert that decisions should only be made by the elected class and you are wrong.

        •  It is a representative democracy... (0+ / 0-)

          we do not have 300 million POTUS...we have 1 that is elected to make decisions like this for us balancing the safety of Americans with the need for information...

          You are incorrect that these decisions were meant to be made by popular opinion polls...

          Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

          by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 08:39:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  It might actually get the attention of (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        downandout, nokkonwud

        WE THE PEOPLE.

        And we might object if, say, it shows children being raped in front of their mothers. We don't know what those photos depict.

        But, people can't react to them or make judgments without seeing them.

        WE PAID FOR THOSE PHOTOS. And we paid for torture. And nobody asked us if it was okay.

        And the people who instituted torture are not even being prosecuted. This is wrong and the WHOLE TRUTH should be brought out NOW.

        When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

        by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 08:57:49 AM PDT

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        •  How is that...? (0+ / 0-)

          Again...these are not the only photos we have of torture that was performed...we know what the general impression of the photos are and we know what occured and that many people consider what happened to be illegal...again...how does putting those photos on CNN change any of that...and how does it make the truth any different...

          GWB administration tortured...period...no amount of photos disclosed or not will change that...

          The truth is out there already...photos are not necessary if it will potentially inflame our enemies...

          Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

          by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:18:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  .. (0+ / 0-)

            The truth is out there already...photos are not necessary if it will potentially inflame our enemies...

            It is not our enemies we need to inflame, but our populace inside the United States in order to prosecute those involved.

            As has been said elsewhere, and as I wrote my Senators, we have been detaining children, some as young as 5 or 6. I pray that is all we have been doing, but my gut tells me the reports coming out of the rape and torture of children are true and THAT is perhaps what they are hiding and THAT is not "out there."

            In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria. Ben Franklin

            by nokkonwud on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:31:47 AM PDT

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            •  If true... (0+ / 0-)

              then the photos can still be used for prosecutions...they do not need to be pasted on CNN in order to do that...

              Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

              by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:34:36 AM PDT

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              •  Yes, except the Obama administration (0+ / 0-)

                opposes prosecution of those responsible for torture.

                When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

                by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 11:09:59 AM PDT

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                •  That is up to the AG...n/t (0+ / 0-)

                  Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

                  by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 11:52:55 AM PDT

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                  •  Yes. That's unacceptable if we care about justice (0+ / 0-)

                    When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

                    by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 12:00:28 PM PDT

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                  •  When the AG does his job and starts prosecuting (0+ / 0-)

                    the torture criminals, then I'll stop talking about making the photos public.

                    In the meantime, when we have an administration that's soft on torture, we need every bit of anti-torture noise we can get.

                    Nothing says "anti-torture" like showing what it looks like. Just as any pictures or films of actual war are inherently anti-war.

                    When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

                    by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 01:48:32 PM PDT

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                    •  You think AG Holder... (0+ / 0-)

                      has not seen these photos yet?  So how do you think releasing will change his mind on prosecutions...?

                      Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

                      by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 01:53:00 PM PDT

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                      •  I think he's doing what Obama wants... (0+ / 0-)

                        and not prosecuting.

                        In the event that the American people actually develop some moral scruples and DEMAND justice after they see these photos (IF they see them), the AG might be "persuaded" to enforce the law.

                        Of course, I have my doubts about the morals scruples of the American people...they've accepted a whole bunch of evil sh!t...but I can still hope.

                        You don't need to agree with me. But I hope you can understand my point.

                        When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

                        by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 02:05:26 PM PDT

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                        •  I understand your POV... (0+ / 0-)

                          but I do not think releasing the photos for the world to see will change any inclination or lack thereof to prosecute torture enablers...

                          Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

                          by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 02:06:52 PM PDT

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                        •  I mean if they are refusing to prosecute... (0+ / 0-)

                          with what is already in the public domain...I don't know why you think that additional torture photos would change their minds...or for that matter the minds of 95% of the people who have made up their opinions one way or another...

                          Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

                          by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 02:08:21 PM PDT

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                          •  I don't THINK it will...but it MIGHT. (0+ / 0-)

                            If the American people accept torture...then maybe we and the troops deserve all the evil that others can perpetrate upon us. Maybe our enemies are RIGHT about us.

                            One could make that case.

                            Maybe we have no ideals, and stand only for raw power. That MAY be the only conclusion to draw. That we condone torture and are morally bankrupt.

                            I hope the answer is: we care about justice, civil liberties and human dignity. Show the pictures and let the people speak.

                            When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

                            by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 03:36:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I understand your POV... (0+ / 0-)

                            but disagree with your conclusion...it is not worth it and won't change anything...except raise our threat level around the world...peace...

                            Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

                            by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 03:49:29 PM PDT

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                          •  My position may not be practical. (0+ / 0-)

                            I know that. And it may raise the threat level around the world.

                            There's no 100% trouble free approach to this situation.

                            I think failure to prosecute those responsible for our torture policy is itself a huge motivator for those who would attack us...and WILL attack us in the future.

                            I think we need to maximize the moral distance between ourselves and the terrorists...but opposing torture and prosecuting it.

                            And, I think the way to make our troops safe is by bringing them home. These pictures...whatever they show...are much less significant than leaving our troops in a war zone as occupiers of foreign countries.

                            When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

                            by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 03:56:13 PM PDT

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                          •  Doing a unilateral withdrawl... (0+ / 0-)

                            of troops from around the world in a careless way will make our country less safe..."we must be as careful drawing down our troops as we were careless in deploying our troops under GWB"...Barack Obama

                            Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

                            by dvogel001 on Fri May 15, 2009 at 03:12:59 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

          •  What truth is out there? (0+ / 0-)

            "...would not add any additional benefit to our understanding of what was carried out in the past by a small number of individuals...":

            1. Who says the release wouldn't "benefit...our understanding"? We're supposed to take him at his word on this assessment, when there's photographic evidence that would allow us to judge that factor?
            1. Is it really "...in the past"? How do we know? Because he says so? Why don't we get to see if these are events of "the past"?
            1. "...by a small number of individuals...": How small? Who are they? Based on the evidence, and if the evidence warrants it, will they be brought to justice?

            Obama is not king. He is not emperor. He is not dictator. He does not have the right to make judgments without accountability to the citizen of the United States--and in relation to the possible heinous quality of the actions he so circumspectly alludes to in relation to the photographs, he's also accountable to the citizens of the world.

            I do not take him at his word. The evidence is there, but we're supposed to let him make the call on whether we see it or not? Sorry--I lost my craving for fuhrer worship by the age of 8 or so. As so perfected stated above, "We paid for those photos." And if we're talking about crimes against humanity, the world's paid for it, too.

            This administration has made no indication that it will hold accountable past actions of criminality regarding this matter--hell, one of the alleged torture architects has been promoted in Afghanistan. It has lost all credibility in this matter. It deserves no pass on its own accountability.

            I want those photos: I want to know who the actors were, I want to know what happened, I want to know when it happened, I want to know who gave the orders, I want to know who created the policy, I want to know who the lawyers were who signed off on it; I want to know when Obama knew, I want to know if he was advised about the legality about what he now knows, and I want to know why he's committed to a particular policy and action path in relation to his knowledge of this matter.

            I've paid for it. So has the rest of the world. That's what the Nuremberg Principles taught us--or at least should have taught us. Apparently slapping the moniker "U.S.A.! U.S.A.! U.S.A.!" on it makes some of us forget about Nuremberg.

            •  Yes. Coming clean & prosecuting those responsible (0+ / 0-)

              is what will cleanse the reputation of our country. Nothing else would...or should...do so.

              I like Obama, but where he's wrong I oppose his actions. I'd have opposed FDR on internment of Japanese-Americans, too.

              When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

              by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 11:12:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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