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View Diary: Why Obama Is Wrong On The Abuse Photos (117 comments)

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  •  Really? How much safety? How much liberty? (0+ / 0-)

    The war wasn't fought for safety. We, as a country, started out with the goal of liberty and protection of the unalienable rights of WE THE PEOPLE.

    If we now renounce those ideals, I'll need to renounce my citizenship.

    When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

    by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:11:19 AM PDT

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    •  What does photos... (0+ / 0-)

      have to do with inalienable rights...?

      Where do we have inalienable rights to see all photos regardless of the value of those photos and the relative risk to Americans here and abroad...

      How does that cause you or me any personal harm...?

      Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

      by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:14:47 AM PDT

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      •  How about "freedom from torture"? (0+ / 0-)

        Yeah, I know it's not specified in the Bill of Rights, but the 9th amendment assures us that our unenumerated rights are also protected.

        The Iraqis already KNOW what Americans have done. These photos won't be news to them. So don't give me that crap that our soldiers are safer by hiding additional evidence of torture.

        Americans need to see those photos. Because to Americans...who still don't quite recognize the magnitude of evil committed by their gov't...this might wake them up.

        And get them to DEMAND justice.

        When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

        by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:25:43 AM PDT

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        •  Again... (0+ / 0-)

          your argument that by not having the photos on CNN we are hiding evidence of torture is not reality based...Obama has seen the photos, and they are being preserved and acknowledged...not shreaded...

          It is not just soldiers...innocent Americans abroad could be endangered by enraged enemies of the US as well..

          Showing these photos changes nothing...the torture has been acknowledged and people have made their judgements...since we have already seen the disgusting photos from other torture...this will add nothing to the debate...it changes nothing about the magnitude...

          Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

          by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:30:03 AM PDT

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          •  If you're right...then America stands for nothing (0+ / 0-)

            and the great American experiment is over.

            Torture won.

            Because, with the evidence so far produced, the American people did not demand justice. We let torturers get away with it. And we never squawked at ongoing violations of our civil liberties, either. Mass spying on WE THE PEOPLE without probable cause.

            I mean, if WE THE PEOPLE don't give a sh%t, then we should just give up.

            When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

            by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:37:43 AM PDT

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            •  You are right... (0+ / 0-)

              a significant pluarlity of this country feels that it is more important to keep the country safe after 9/11 than to do things that potentially endanger American lives...

              We have had these issues before where civil rights have been abridged and survived as a country...during wars habeas corpus has been suspended, people have been put in internment camps because of their national origin and we have even had witch-hunt trials...

              And we will survive this crisis too...don't give up yet because we are not perfect...

              Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

              by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:42:20 AM PDT

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              •  If would be nice, however, if we actually (0+ / 0-)

                learned lessons from our mistakes...like the internment camps.

                I mean, we're really not so stupid as to believe that torture is okay. We KNOW it's wrong. Americans are just rationalizing...chosing to believe that it makes us safer.

                Just as keeping Japanese-Americans in prisons camps might have helped the American war effort. Even if it did (and I don't believe it did) it's still wrong and we should not have done it.

                So it is with torture and coverups.

                Your point about our "recovery"...is correct. We did, somewhat, recover from the past evils we've committed. We corrected course.

                But if we can't even prosecute torture? And with THIS supreme court that maximizes gov't's power to spy on us without probable cuase, put us in prisons without due process? With an imperial presidency and squashed civil liberties?

                We may or may not be able to recover. I think it depends on the effort WE THE PEOPLE are willing to make. And we've done a pretty lame job so far.

                Electing Obama slowed the bleeding of liberty...but it didn't (yet) do nearly enough to restore our ideals.

                When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

                by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:51:59 AM PDT

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                •  Well we did not prosecute... (0+ / 0-)

                  those involved in the Japanese internment camps and we did not make the same mistake in the Korean or Vietnam wars...

                  Not to say I am against prosecuting torturers...but to say we will not learn our lessons and not torture again unless perpetrators are prosecuted is not a certainty...

                  Obama - Real Leadership for a Real Change

                  by dvogel001 on Thu May 14, 2009 at 09:56:30 AM PDT

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                  •  Good point. Thanks for giving me (0+ / 0-)

                    reason for hope...

                    When a government violates the unalienable rights of the people, it loses its legitimacy.

                    by Rayk on Thu May 14, 2009 at 10:13:45 AM PDT

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