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View Diary: Gallup "Pro-Life" Abortion Poll: MSM Fudges Results (POLL) (82 comments)

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  •  Pro-life.. (12+ / 0-)

    ... should mean more than pro-gestation. And that is where the shrillest anti-abortion voices of this debate fall so very short.

    •  Agreed. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buckhorn okie, dmitcha, cany, Susipsych

      The Democratic Party could easily become the Pro-Life party.  With universal healthcare, help for single mothers, better job opportunities, etc., we may be able to make abortion a thing of the past.

      "Ambrose...Just stop it now ! Your intellect is just to overpowering and opressive for us average bloggers"

      by AmbroseBurnside on Sun May 17, 2009 at 12:33:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Pro Choice doesn't necessarily mean anti-life (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buckhorn okie, dmitcha, annominous

        I think pro life means anti-war, and our nation isn't doing so hot in that regards.

        My devoutly Catholic mother was against abortion, for life, but also for choice.

        Three of my sons have decided not to have children because the world is overpopulated. What category does this put them in?

        categories, schmategories...let's live together in PEACE!

        •  Agreed, and that is why (5+ / 0-)

          We have to focus on what is at the heart of this debate:

          - Women do have the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy (the same right Sarah Palin had).
          - Women don't have the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy.

          Those legal sides appear to be most accurately expressed as "Pro-Choice" and "Anti-Choice."

          Any attempted correlation of the term "Life" to either side is misleading and off-topic, imho.

          If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

          by dmitcha on Sun May 17, 2009 at 12:46:54 PM PDT

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          •  Agreed. Plus. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buckhorn okie

            Whether or not women continue to have the legal option to terminate a pregnancy, abortion will continue. What can possibly be the anti-choice position that forces these women into back-street unregulated abortions?

            "Pro-Life" -- Just another example of cruel-mindedness from the gooper set.

          •  That's it... right there. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buckhorn okie, dmitcha, PeggyD

            Everything else is a distraction. Do women have the basic right to control their own bodies or not?

            If they don't, how do you stop them from using age old methods of abortion like perforating the uterus, blunt trauma to the abdomen, or chemical methods of poisoning the fetus (and the mother)?

            Either lock up rebellious women and force feed them until they give birth, or stop with all of this bogus moralizing.

            Men can walk away from a pregnancy. Families can stone a woman for being promicuous. Women can be forced to bring a rapist's child into this world.

            Bottom line is that pregnancy is often viewed as the appropriate punishment for wayward women. There is no other comparable concern for life anywhere in the world whether it be in areas of hunger, the death penalty, genocide or "collateral" losses during warfare.

            Yes, I am a woman but to me it always smells of keeping women where they should be above all else.

            Landscape, with its basis of aridity, is both our peculiar splendor and our peculiar limitation- Wallace Stegner

            by blindyone on Sun May 17, 2009 at 01:56:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm ardently pro-choice, but the problem with (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Pandoras Box, dmitcha

              reducing the argument to the notion that women should have complete control of their own bodies is that the opposition sees the issue as being about the fetus--to them, a separate body that the woman shouldn't have the power of life or death over. I would argue of course that the fetus is not separate, viable or sentient (for at least 26 weeks anyway), even though there are people who claim to remember their time in the womb. Yeah, sure you do.

              The issue of the woman's body, however, is absolutely paramount, in the sense that an illegal abortion represents a real threat to the life of the mother. A woman should have the unquestionable right to choose whether to terminate a pregnancy and to have it done safely by medical professionals. This implies control over the fetus as well, obviously, but that's the point at which most people, and particularly the mother, feel the most ambivalence. This may be why the Gallup shows such a disconnect between people who say they're pro-Life (who isn't?) and yet don't think abortion should be illegal. I believe that to acknowledge that the choice is very difficult for women because of the fetus only strengthens the argument that she alone can make that choice.

              I never liked you and I always will.

              by Ray Blake on Sun May 17, 2009 at 03:04:28 PM PDT

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              •  My bottom line is that women should have (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                dmitcha

                complete control over their bodies. If not them... then who else should "control" their bodies? And they should answer to God, as an adult, for their choices as any other adult would.

                Are you a man? Do you have control over your body? But I shouldn't because of my different anatomy?

                The threat to the life of a mother is a good argument but it will never protect women from being forced into "choices" that they don't want to make.

                And where personhood comes in, or when a particular being is allowed to inhabit a physical body that allows them to join our world is very vague and religious.

                I am a lapsed Catholic, who believes in God, but I can't be sure how life begins, and I have never seen any science so far that persuades me of anything.

                And reincarnation, which is a belief of millions, allows for other possibilities... like the aborted person will come back in another body. How is any of this a matter of public policy or of government... unless you live in a theocracy?

                Landscape, with its basis of aridity, is both our peculiar splendor and our peculiar limitation- Wallace Stegner

                by blindyone on Sun May 17, 2009 at 03:29:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Very good question: As a man, do I have control (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dmitcha

                  over my own body? I would say that in all kinds of ways, none of us has complete control over our bodies under law--in fact, the government mediates our bodies in a broad variety of ways. As a man specifically, I am still subject to the military draft. Under certain circumstances, that could be a matter of life or death. To refuse to serve would subject me to imprisonment as it did to thousands of men during the Vietnam War. Likewise, a much higher proportion of men, particularly minorities, are incarcerated. The black male body could be considered the most restricted body in the U.S., the consequence of racism, unequally applied drug laws, and a profitable private prison system.

                  In daily life, there all kinds of regulations on the body. I'm not allowed to trespass on private property, even those public places owned by corporations. It is increasingly difficult to even photograph corporate buildings because they claim control of that right even if I'm on public land. I have no right to drive an automobile. I am granted the privilege of doing so by the state. I'm restricted in myriad ways from expressing my sexuality, as we all are.

                  In reality, we have control over our bodies within a fairly limited sphere. This isn't an argument against women having the right to terminate a pregnancy. I'm 100% in favor of that and always have been. I'm just saying that claiming the right to control over our own bodies may not be the most persuasive argument for keeping abortion safe and legal.

                  I never liked you and I always will.

                  by Ray Blake on Sun May 17, 2009 at 04:18:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  interesting, the draft issue (0+ / 0-)

                    I hope we never see another draft, but I don't know that it will survive as single-sex without court challenge.  Even the no-women-in-combat issue surprises to me.  But from what I have read, it's men who don't think women should be drafted or in combat.  So they condemn themselves to being the only ones in that situation.  It is odd, the chauvinism that costs one's own so dearly...

                    If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

                    by dmitcha on Sun May 17, 2009 at 04:27:50 PM PDT

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                    •  If there is another draft and women are approved (0+ / 0-)

                      for combat, they will likewise relinquish their right to control their bodies from the age of 18 on (selective service registration is still required for males). And I doubt it's just men (soldiers actually) who have qualms about that. Most parents would still feel better about their sons being drafted and put in harm's way than their daughters. Remember that in a military draft, you're legally required to sign up on your 18th birthday and after that you're potential cannon fodder. If Americans started seeing young women's bodies blown up by roadside bombs and eviscerated, how would they react? We're conditioned to seeing that happen to male soldiers, but we tend to have a greater sense of horror when it's a woman. Maybe that will change, who knows.

                      I never liked you and I always will.

                      by Ray Blake on Sun May 17, 2009 at 04:56:56 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  agreed - selective service (0+ / 0-)

                        hits home every year when I have to counsel young men that they will not qualify for govt based financial aid if they have not registered.

                        If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

                        by dmitcha on Sun May 17, 2009 at 05:59:12 PM PDT

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      •  that won't happen (0+ / 0-)

        it can't be a thing of the past because birth control WILL fail...and there will still be people unwilling or unable to carry a fetus to term

        "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

        by Pandoras Box on Sun May 17, 2009 at 05:56:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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