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View Diary: 8: The Mormon Proposition (Interview w/ director Reed Cowan) (30 comments)

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  •  Interesting (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WI Deadhead, TerribleTom, mofembot

    I look forward to the release of the film.  It'll be with eyes wide open though.  As an atheist, stuff like this makes me a little leery:

    In actuality, the gay people and gay allies I interviewed were VERY kind (for the most part) about the LDS church and its people.  I felt the spirit of God when I talked to these people.  I did not feel it when I talked to Gayle Ruzicka or Senator Buttars or America Forever's people.

    Maybe it's because I'm in NYC and we don't pull punches, but the reaction of the protesters outside the LDS temple here that I witnessed on the night of the Join the Impact protest was decidedly NOT kind toward the LDS church...and nor should it be in my opinion.

    I was by coincidence in Salt Lake City last October when the LDS was having their bi-annual meeting just weeks prior to the Prop 8 vote in CA.  It was there that Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (!) released this gem on "Celestial Marriage":

    His plan declares that men and women are "that they might have joy."2 That joy comes when we choose to live in harmony with God’s eternal plan.

    The importance of choice may be illustrated by a homespun concept that came to mind one day when I was shopping in a large retail store. I call it "patterns of the shopper." As shopping is part of our daily life, these patterns may be familiar.

    Wise shoppers study their options thoroughly before they make a selection. They focus primarily on the quality and durability of a desired product. They want the very best. In contrast, some shoppers look for bargains, and others may splurge, only to learn later—much to their dismay—that their choice did not endure well. And sadly, there are those rare individuals who cast aside their personal integrity and steal what they want. We call them shoplifters.

    The patterns of the shopper may be applied to the topic of marriage. A couple in love can choose a marriage of the highest quality or a lesser type that will not endure. Or they can choose neither and brazenly steal what they want as "marital shoplifters."

    To quote your interview subject:

    OY!  That's my comment!  OY!

    •  I hate shopping. (3+ / 0-)

      It's definitely not part of my daily life.

      Lucky for me, the pattern of my marriage is that I get to be the cranky ol' straight guy and my wife doesn't give me too much grief about it, considering we both believe I was born that way.

      Anyway, Russell, if you're reading, that was meant to be a homespun explanation of the irrelevance of choice to this whole discussion.

    •  "Celestial marriage", ah yes, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      luvmovies2000, CDH in Brooklyn

      that's a good one.  See, my wife's previous husband, a terrible abuser, was killed in a horse-riding accident back in the '70s, a few years after they were married.  Married, that is, as Mormons in a Mormon church (but not at The Temple).  Now Mormon doctrine, as I understand it, holds that they will be reunited as husband and wife in Heaven when she dies.  And I, an atheist, will of course burn in hell forever.  So here's my wife's conundrum:  she's going to be reunited for an eternal marriage with a man she ended up hating because of the way he treated her (beatings, hair-pulling, mental oppression, and more), but will be eternally separated from the soul of the man and husband she does love (me).

      But, of course, since her marriage to me is, according to Elder Nelson, simply an act of spiritual shoplifting, the "eternal" scenario I just described is the proper reward for her.

      The question is not what, but who you want to be. --F.R. Prince

      by cn4st4datrees on Mon May 25, 2009 at 11:01:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You Misunderstand Mormon Doctrine... (1+ / 0-)
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        You say that your wife was not married in the Temple.  Therefore her marriage to her first husband was for this life only and not eternal.

        Should you die first, your wife could be sealed to you in the Temple for Eternity.  Ask your wife about this.  However, I suspect that your goal is not to be with your current wife eternally.

        •  Thanks for correction. (2+ / 0-)

          I have asked my wife about this, and she says she's not sure, but that if I really wanted to know the specifics of Mormon doctrine on this point I should ask her Bishop.  Meh, truth is, I don't really care since I believe there is no such thing as an afterlife anyway, and so deeper discussion is actually pointless.

          However, it is still valid to discuss the doctrine from a hypothetical point of view:  if, stipulated, a marriage conducted in the Temple in Salt Lake City is a marriage that will continue in Heaven for all eternity, and if that marriage was to a man who was a horrible physical abuser of his wife, and if that woman then later married a non-Mormon man whom she deeply loved, could you then call "Heavenly Father" a just and fair God for reuniting her with her abuser but eternally separating her from her true soulmate?  I know I couldn't.

          The question is not what, but who you want to be. --F.R. Prince

          by cn4st4datrees on Mon May 25, 2009 at 11:55:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That answer is easy: No way. n/t (0+ / 0-)
          •  Your Hypothetical Doesn't Represent... (0+ / 0-)

            actual Mormon Doctrine.  Many Sealings in the Mormon Temple are cancelled for a variety of reasons such as the example you cite, physical abuse.  And a wife can and often is sealed to her non mormon husband after her death, so that she can be reunited with her true soulmate.

            And you should have only good feelings when you receive food from the Mormon Church.  They have a vast welfare system that helps people of all races, faiths, nationalities, etc.  They are often some of the first groups to bring supplies to areas hit by natural disasters.  You may also want to see what your local areas welfare projects consist of.  You may be physically able to help on the projects so that others in need will benefit from your labors.  Your wife will know what welfare projects are performed in your area.  Much of the food you received was prepared in church factories by member volunteers.

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