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View Diary: Why they shouldn't release the photos (108 comments)

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  •  Semantics? (1+ / 0-)
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    justmy2

    Did you read the rest of my comment?

    What do you need as proof to show that people behave in predictable ways in mobs?  Take a sociology course.

    We'll see plenty of proof if this ever comes to trial.  Getting t5he pictures out is how you create enough pressure to get it to trial.

    Bah. Typoed during acct creation. It's Ezekiel 23:20

    by Ezekial 23 20 on Thu May 28, 2009 at 11:44:11 AM PDT

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    •  I'm sick of (1+ / 0-)
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      amazinggrace

      people in these comments telling me that the very fact that these things happened is "proof" that there was a widespread policy of raping people in our military. That's flat-out ridiculous. You don't decide to rape someone based on a "culture" of any kind permeating your workplace. You have to be a sick fuck, and you were certainly not ordered to do it.

      Who's saying they don't want these people tried? Not me. And if some evidence does surface in the course of that trial that indicts their superiors, great.

      You and I don't get to be the judges of that, though. That's why we have a legal system. There's a lot of people who seem to want to try this case in the media, when it should be tried in court, if we ever want to get to those who are REALLY responsible.

      Dance like no one is watching with one fist in the air... We are stronger than everything they have taught us that we should fear.

      by Surly Cracker on Thu May 28, 2009 at 11:52:02 AM PDT

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      •  the Senate Armed Service Committee disagrees (0+ / 0-)

        with you...

        I trust them.  But who knows..

        "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." - President Barack Obama, April 5, 2009

        by justmy2 on Thu May 28, 2009 at 01:21:28 PM PDT

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        •  Really? 3 comments making the (1+ / 0-)
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          amazinggrace

          same nothing point?

          Look, if there was compelling evidence that people were being ordered to do this stuff from the top down, then why has no one been tried? WHY NO TRIALS?

          You say above something alluding to the notoin that Obama is protecting these people, which means I'll have no truck with your crackpot theories. There are two potential reasons why no one has been tried.

          a) There's not enough evidence, yet, and the Justice Dept is still working on it.

          or

          b) The abuses from the photos and other reports and testimony and whatever don't contribute enough to the overall body of evidence of a larger "culture" of abuse to warrant a trial, and that may or may not change.

          Releasing the photos DOES NOTHING for the legal process that will eventually get us somewhere. It might make you feel better about what bad guys Bush and Rummy were, and give you something to email to people or whatever, but unless you work in the Justice Department or the White House or the Pentagon, you having access to them is not your fucking right, nor is it useful to anyone.

          Advocate for whatever you want. The photos are evidence. If you show them to everyone, it compromises your investigation. Then you don't get to convict anyone. And then you're screwed.

          Just because it'll make you feel better doesn't make it a good idea.

          Dance like no one is watching with one fist in the air... We are stronger than everything they have taught us that we should fear.

          by Surly Cracker on Thu May 28, 2009 at 01:45:02 PM PDT

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          •  Are you feinging stupidity? (0+ / 0-)

            Look, if there was compelling evidence that people were being ordered to do this stuff from the top down, then why has no one been tried? WHY NO TRIALS?

            Is that really your argument?  Who was in control until the last 3 months?  Let's see...THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE AT RISK?

            Are you kidding me?  Please tell me you don't really believe a crime doesn't exist because the executive branch decides not to investigate it.  Really?

            Ask John Dean and Richard Nixon and Casper Weinberger about that explanation...

            WOW!!!

            "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." - President Barack Obama, April 5, 2009

            by justmy2 on Thu May 28, 2009 at 01:49:55 PM PDT

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    •  The court of public opinion???? (1+ / 0-)
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      Surly Cracker

      Did not stop the genocidal methods used against the Native American. Did not stop the savage treatment of Africans during slavery. Did not stop lynching & Jim Crow policies post civil war. Did not stop Japanese Americans from interment camps. Did not stop within a reasonable time frame, the carnage in Vietnam. Did not stop torture post Abu Ghraib. Did not prevent the re-election of George W. Bush. And now the court of public opinion will create pressure? My money is on the court of law. The court of public opinion has failed miserably throughout history.

      All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. Thomas Jefferson

      by amazinggrace on Thu May 28, 2009 at 11:55:36 AM PDT

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      •  Thank you. (1+ / 0-)
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        amazinggrace

        We are a society of laws. This isn't Chris Brown hitting Rhiana we're talking about here, we don't need a fucking instant poll on E! about it. It's not a joke (and no, neither was the other thing I mentioned,) and it needs to be dealt with in a manner consistent with hundreds of years or legal tradition if we have any hope of getting to the bastards that caused it.  

        Dance like no one is watching with one fist in the air... We are stronger than everything they have taught us that we should fear.

        by Surly Cracker on Thu May 28, 2009 at 12:08:58 PM PDT

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        •  And I think (1+ / 0-)
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          Surly Cracker

          The Justice Department is crafting a hell of a case against those responsible. That is where it belongs, in the legal system. This country has been unaccustomed to how things should work as a result of 8 years of Bush. Not everything is political & certainly everything does not play itself out in news cycles. Thanks for the diary.

          All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. Thomas Jefferson

          by amazinggrace on Thu May 28, 2009 at 12:14:30 PM PDT

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      •  So basically (0+ / 0-)

        we should all just curl up in a corner, stop writing letters to the editor, stop mailing our Congressmen, stop blogging, because public opinion doesn't ever cause politicians to do anything?

        Thanks for that, amazing the time and effort wasted, and we only had to ask you to find out it was pointless.

        Bah. Typoed during acct creation. It's Ezekiel 23:20

        by Ezekial 23 20 on Thu May 28, 2009 at 12:20:23 PM PDT

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        •  As with the rest of the comments in this thread (1+ / 0-)
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          Surly Cracker

          You have missed the point. But you are a little too combative to continue this conversation. Get the chip off your shoulder. It inhibits the exchange of ideas.                                          Ezekiel 23:20 (New International Version)
          20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

          If this is who you are, never mind.

          All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. Thomas Jefferson

          by amazinggrace on Thu May 28, 2009 at 12:26:53 PM PDT

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        •  Coming from someone (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          amazinggrace

          who got started here what, last week?, I'm not really insulted.

          Hang around a while, it it quickly disabuse you of the notion that anyone cares what you, I, or anyone else on the internet thinks, least of all politicians.

          We both want the same thing, I just think the Justice Department and Presidents' method of getting us there is better than the one you suggest.

          Dance like no one is watching with one fist in the air... We are stronger than everything they have taught us that we should fear.

          by Surly Cracker on Thu May 28, 2009 at 12:33:11 PM PDT

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          •  I've hung around since November (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            justmy2, Surly Cracker

            Just got around to feeling I had a feel for the place.

            And I tend to agree more with you (we do want the same thing) than I do amazinggrace.

            I just feel frustrated that we don't really seem to be getting there, and photos will ratchet up public protests.  Isn't that why we never got to see coverage of military coffins coming home while Bush was in office?  Because photos cause people to agitate.

            If Obama would come out tomorrow and say 'Yes, we intend to prosecute', I'd drop all my calls for the photos to be released.

            Bah. Typoed during acct creation. It's Ezekiel 23:20

            by Ezekial 23 20 on Thu May 28, 2009 at 12:43:18 PM PDT

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      •  Actually it was photographic and video (0+ / 0-)

        evidence that were critical to bringing an end to many of those atrocities...

        but that doesn't fit into your point, so I guess it shouldn't matter.

        "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." - President Barack Obama, April 5, 2009

        by justmy2 on Thu May 28, 2009 at 01:22:59 PM PDT

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        •  Specifically (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Surly Cracker

          Your premise is untrue. The atrocities against Native Americans continued unabated with no real public outcry. Slavery ended when Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation to cripple the south during the civil war. The abolitionist movement did not end it. Lynching & Jim Crow laws continued unabated without a huge public outcry. Whites traded lynching postcards with one another. Images of them having picnics under swinging black bodies. Japanese citizens where not released from interment camps until the end of WW11 & Roosevelt was never prosecuted for war crimes. The Vietnam War continued four years after the Mai Lai massacre photos were released. So please,what was your point again?

          All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. Thomas Jefferson

          by amazinggrace on Thu May 28, 2009 at 02:25:49 PM PDT

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          •  ok..if you must...a point by point refutation (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            amazinggrace

            Did not stop the genocidal methods used against the Native American.

            not stopped, no mass publishing mechanism at the time and actually it never stopped.  However, I said many of these atrocities, not all.

            did not stop the savage treatment of Africans during slavery.

            The record shows books such as Uncle Tom's Cabin, as well as writings of abolitionists, had a profound impact of changing public opinion in non-slave states, and some have said Uncle Tom's Cabin was a catalyst for the ultimate conflict that helped end slavery.

            Did not stop lynching & Jim Crow policies post civil war.

            It was not until pictures of people being hosed, dogs attacking citizens, and massive non-violent protest broadcast across the land did major civil rights changes and policies of the Jim Crow era were overturned by the Civil Rights act of 1964.

            Did not stop Japanese Americans from interment camps.

            Pictures and video of internment camps played a role in determining and generating public support for reparations.

            Did not stop within a reasonable time frame, the carnage in Vietnam.

            Photos such as the boy being shot in the head and Walter Cronkite declaring the war is lost on video were part and parcel to moving public opinion towards ending the war.

            Did not stop torture post Abu Ghraib.

            100% false.  It was not until the photos of Abu Ghraib were released that the Bybee memos were overturned and official policies allowing torture were withdrawn.  This is all part of the public record.

            Did not prevent the re-election of George W. Bush.

            You got me there and I think we both are pissed about that.  BUT, pictures of Abu Ghraib and Katrina were critical to the election of a Democratic Congress and Senate in 2006 and a Democratic President in 2008.

            So no, none of these things stopped on a dime.  But direct correlations can be made to the impact of mass communication including photographs and video on causing public opinion to turn enough to give politicians the political cover to make decisions they likely would not have made if public opinion differed.

            If your argument is that release of the pictures will not stop all war crimes forever immediately after their release, well I will give you that strawman argument.  But fortunately, no one here has argued that.

            (I am assuming that you don't need citation for all of these, but let me know if you do.)

            "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." - President Barack Obama, April 5, 2009

            by justmy2 on Thu May 28, 2009 at 02:51:49 PM PDT

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