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View Diary: Frank Schaeffer is still an anti-abortion wingnut (108 comments)

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  •  Fuck common ground. (5+ / 0-)

    There is nothing to "debate" nor "common ground" to find with anyone who continues to run around repeating any part of the language, framing or beliefs associated with the murder-equivalence anti-abortion movement, whether that be Schaeffer or the usual run-of-the-mill passive self-identified "pro-lifer."

    Associating "murder" with "abortion" is a lie that cannot be rationally dealt with through more debate or discussion. From that falsehood, all the rest of the rhetoric flows, including Schaeffer's continued insistence that there is something inherently wrong with abortion, or that it is something that must be regulated and restricted by the state. All the rest of that rhetoric must be denied if the lie at the core is denied.

    Associating "murder" with "abortion," as every single organized anti-abortion organization openly says, inherently sets the stage for violence, either that which would be carried out under state regulation against those who perform abortions, or via the pistol of the "lunatic" Schaeffer himself acknowledged in his 1992 diatribe.

    That you are so willing to throw in the towel and call me "hate-filled" when I simply point out the obvious simply shows how screwed up American culture is - the deliberate result of a few decades of really fucked-up rhetoric put forward by clerics like Schaeffer and his father in an attempt to bend government to their own ends.

    It is time to flush all of that, now.

    •  Pretty tough talk from a REMF. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      high bitrate, MRA NY

      You aren't taking bullets to give women a choice. You aren't wrestling with any sort of conscience about the choices that women (and many times their partners) must make. You are simply mouthing off on a message board about an issue that you very clearly have little knowledge about and are doing nothing but harm to a cause that you claim to care about.

      All I see from this diary and your responses in this thread is you sitting back and playing semantical war games with other people's lives and the moral decisions they make without taking any of the responsibility for adding fuel to an already raging fire.

      Take that towel and shove it in your mouth. You have no idea what the hell you are talking screeching about.

      "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

      by blueintheface on Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 08:47:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Babbling nonsensically till you're blueintheface (4+ / 0-)

        Yes, I stood out in front of Dr. Tiller's clinic for most of a midsummer week some years ago, working to see, firsthand, and understand, exactly what happened there.

        I have spent many hours over more than the past decade with providers and former providers, learning firsthand just what a sham the anti-abortion movement is - and what a corrosive effect it has had on the provision of abortion, and the public rhetoric about it, over decades.

        I have also spent time actually going inside the conferences and events of many anti-abortion organizations to get a firsthand understanding of what they have actually been doing. And I have spent time listening to women and their partners. My partner, a woman, has worked around these issues for more than two decades.

        So, yes, as a matter of fact, I do know exactly what I'm talking about. I also know that the "cause" generally known by the term "pro-choice" has been a spectacular failure, and it is time to bring about change by other means.

        One of those means is to put forward what I believe to be true, and discard both the failed and co-opted rhetoric of "choice" and any rhetoric that has been picked up from the anti-abortion movement over decades.

        These are not mere semantical war games, these are the ways in which new (or, more accurately, previously squelched) ideas, and the acceptability of those ideas, may be popularized in American culture.

        That is why, among other reasons, I wrote this diary.

        •  All that supposed experience and yet you still (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          high bitrate

          have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

          Knowing the language of the pro-choice movement obviously doesn't give you any insight into the  women who choose to end a pregnancy or how those choices should be protected. You've shown no understanding or compassion for the women who have decided to have an abortion and make no moral or logical argument as to why that choice should be legally protected.

          Spinning semantics into a black and white "pro or anti" argument isn't demonstrating any insight on this issue either. People like Dr Tiller have spent their entire lives being emotionally invested in giving women a choice. Your diary shows you have given abortion no more thought than dissecting a frog, conducting a clinical trial or selling condoms at CVS.

          Keep patting yourself on the back for having the most superficial understanding of what this issue is about. Apparently you feel really good about how much you think you know about abortion. Just know that there's someone just like you on the other side who thinks that they are morally, legally, and grammatically correct. And together you both equal Zero.

          "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

          by blueintheface on Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 09:33:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  You are an extremist. You have ignored the sound (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      high bitrate, blueintheface

      arguments of debate here - even the points made by women who have had abortions who have shot down your cavalier attitude toward the procedure.  Add me to that list.

      Extremists, whether on the left or the right, are all idiots, and your tirades in this diary certainly confirm that you are both an extremist and an idiot, totally incapable of reasoned debate, hardline, and ONLY your opinion matters and is right.  Grow up.

      •  What makes me an extremist? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stormcoming, arlene, i like bbq

        All I am saying is that, as a matter of fact, people do own their own bodies. And that behavior should not be criminalized, or even in any way regulated, simply because that behavior that affects no one else makes somebody else feel bad.

        Given that I live here in the US, a profoundly puritanical place which many think is "normal" when it's clearly not, perhaps that simple assertion is "extreme." That is because we live in a place that is itself pretty damn extreme, where we incarcerate a bigger portion of our citizens than any other nation... primarily, at the root, because some people do things to their own bodies that make others uneasy.

        So I walk out here and insist that, as a basic definition, abortion is a medical procedure, nothing more, and the response I get is primarily the feelings that people project onto the procedure for either their own personal reasons, or because they grew up in a culture saturated with the load of crap that they must somehow care about what other people do with their bodies. Oh, and yes, fetuses are the "unborn" and carry special privileges to allow further regulation of what people can do to their own bodies.

        Never mind that all this elevation of fetuses to the status of people was a political tactic designed to elevate the status of clerics, among other things. It was entire a relatively recent construction engineered by people like Schaeffer and his father. So now, you all act like you can't think for yourselves because the culture has been saturated with this crap for decades, and the mere mention that things both weren't always this way, and that they can be different, makes me the extremist?

    •  I'd rec that 1000 times if I could. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mike Doughney

      I'm tired of this mealy-mouthed "we have to find common ground" nonsense. Pro-choicers have tried to find common ground with pro-liars over the years. How many pro-liars have supported comprehensive sex ed in the schools? Contraception? Better support systems for women who do choose to have babies? Damned few.

      Amanda Marcotte says it well in this post (bold is my emphasis):

      [W]hat I don’t appreciate is the notion that both sides can agree that abortion is a tragedy. No, we don’t actually agree. We have one side that sees abortion as a threat to civilization itself, and another that sees it as a right that must be maintained for the equality and dignity of women. If we buy into the frame that abortion is a tragedy, we’ve conceded the argument to the other side, who gets to have the moral high ground. Which is baffling, because, as this assassination and the response from anti-choicers (essentially: c’mon guys, remember that it’s illegal, and let’s get back to talking about how abortion providers deserve to go to hell) shows, they are nasty people who wouldn’t know morality and compassion if it bit them on the ass. The moral high ground belongs to the pro-choice side, and the life of Dr. Tiller should be a reminder of this. While anti-choicers scream about how 30-40% of American women are murderers, Dr. Tiller saw those women for what they are — good, decent people struggling to do the right thing. While the anti-choice protesters enjoy how their anger scares women seeking abortion services, Dr. Tiller braved the ongoing threat of violence to save lives. We really shouldn’t even concede the ground of calling anti-choicers “pro-life”. They aren’t pro-life. Pro-choicers are the ones who are pro-life. We believe in the value of women’s lives, and we fight for this against a sexist society that treats women’s lives as lesser.

      Unfortunately, we do Dr. Tiller and every doctor who provides abortion a disservice when we talk about abortion as a tragedy. It’s obvious that the proper word for an abortion provider is “hero" — someone who risks very real dangers because they feel they have a moral duty to support women’s right to live our lives with dignity and purpose. If we have to avoid saying this to avoid hurting the fee-fees of anti-choicers to get them to talk about “common ground”, then fuck it.

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