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  •  Ya misunderstand, Kos! (none)
    The overwhelming majority of this blog is liberal.

    I welcome a poll to prove the point.

    Would you call yourself:

    A Hardcore liberal Democrat? (Kucinich or further to the left)

    A Progressive Democrat? (To the right of Kucinich, to the left of Dean)

    A Moderate Democrat? (Kerry, Dean, Clark, Edwards)

    A Libertarian Democrat?

    A Conservative Democrat? (Lieberman, Bayh, etc.)

    An open-minded person who favors a variety of positions, depending upon the issue---but a Democrat nonetheless?

    I take a variety of pragmatic positions, depending upon the issue. But otherwise, I'm a moderate. And although I don't begrudge a soul for it, I'm definitely in the minority here.

    Caution! These are shark-infested waters! http://jayshark.blogspot.com

    by Jonathan4Dean on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 07:38:38 PM PST

    •  Wait a sec (none)
      Kerry, Dean, Clark and Edwards makes a Moderate and then you declare yourself in the minority?

      Come now, that's 99% here.

      It's time to reject a President that says to the American people 'Ignore my record, forget my failures and fear the future.' - Kerry Campaign

      by Armando on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 07:46:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Liberals and Progressives (none)
        I happen to think 60% or more here would define themselves as "liberals" or "progressives" not "moderates" or "conservatives."

        People supported Dean, Kerry, Edwards, Clark out of necessity.

        Caution! These are shark-infested waters! http://jayshark.blogspot.com

        by Jonathan4Dean on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:01:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  You haven't read Kos correctly ... (none)
      Okay ... can we set this all straight.  Kos said:

      We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama

      Hello!  Kos is right.  Dean is less liberal than Kerry.  Somehow he got labeled "liberal" because he wanted to reform the party.  I wonder who might have done that!  ;-)

      This is what we mean by framing the language.  When a buzzword is used and no one really remembers what the buzzword means only that that buzzword is somehow "bad", we all are yanked around by the shorthairs.  It's manipulation darling!

      "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

      by Glinda on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 08:20:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Dean's a liberal (none)
        liberal
               adj 1: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad
                      political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a
                      liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's
                      opinions" [syn: broad, large-minded, tolerant]
               2: having political or social views favoring reform and
                  progress
               3: tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism,
                  orthodoxy, or tradition [ant: conservative]
        •  Yes then everyone can themselves a liberal! (none)
          ... since everyone thinks that they are, by definition #1, broad-minded and the other side is narrow-minded.  Did you actually ever meet anyone who thought of themselves as narrow-minded?

          And as for definition #2 the neo-cons and the conservatives in the 1980's claimed that they were for reform of the system and "progress".

          As for #3, I've been around long enough to notice that many political liberals are way bound by orthodoxy and tradition.

          Saying all that, I consider myself to be a liberal.  

          For a good overview of liberalism go to the Liberalism entry in Wikipedia. Especially good is the section Liberalism Today

          But liberalism today is significantly different from liberalism 20 years ago. It's a more "free market" stance than it used to be in the heyday of unions.  

          "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

          by Glinda on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 04:29:23 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  get out and meet more conservatives (none)
            and evangelicals.  Being broad-minded is not considered a good thing -- moral relativism and all that.

            wikipedia, by its nature, is not very authoritative.  But I don't see anythig in that article that would contradict my claim that Dean is a liberal.

            •  Evangelicals are NOT conservatives (none)
              I know a lot of conservatives and many are my friends.  I'm talking Wall Street Journal editorial page and National Review readers.  They think they are far more broad-minded than any liberal!  I have been arguing with them for more than 20 years about politics.  We never agree but we do find come common ground.  

              One of the "common ground" issues is that Evangelicals are nuts and their influence is damaging when it enters the politics of America. They may not say this in any media outlet but they sure admit it in private! Do not equate "Evangelicals" with "Conservatives".

              "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

              by Glinda on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 05:33:29 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh and one more thing! (none)
                I was actually surprised at how accurate in general the Wikipedia entry for "liberalism" is.  I had quibbles with a few parts, but only since I had a front seat view of liberals [being one and hanging out with liberals of diverse age groups] in the 60s, 70s and 80s that the writer(s) might not have had.  

                And if they are my age, they have rose-colored memories of some of the "liberal mistakes" of the past since the entry glossed over some of the nuttier positions that we embraced and then discarded.

                I'm a liberal.  But Dean has moderate positions on many things that I have to admire since they allow the forming of coalitions.  And the Democratic Party desperately needs to do some coalition building!

                "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

                by Glinda on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 06:09:52 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  wikipedia is open source (none)
                  If you think there's something wrong with the page, you can fix it.  Your comment about the experience of the authors of the page is off the mark,since the authors are a nonspecific set of internet users. And your talk about "nuttier positions" is also off the mark -- the article isabout liberalism as an ideology, not other positions or ideologies that people who now identify themselves as liberal may have once adhered to. Also, that liberals discarded certain positions does not make those positions mistakes or nutty.

                  And that Dean has some positions that can be described as "moderate" doesn't mean he's not a liberal.  As I wrote, "I don't see anythig in that article that would contradict my claim that Dean is a liberal", and you haven't pointed out anything that I missed.

              •  look up the word 'and' in the dictionary (none)
                I never said evangelicals are conservatives and I never equated them.  Next time you might want to reply what is actually written -- which was about moral relativism, a issue on which conservatives and evangelicals tend to have common ground.  Also, you and your conservative friends seem to share an offensive stereotype of evangelicals -- they are not, generally speaking, "nuts", and many of them don't support Bush.  Not all evangelicals are Dominionists.
              •  Terms and definitions (none)
                A few definitions:

                Evangelical---a Christian who spreads the good news and isn't afraid to convert others

                Fundamentalist Christian---a Christian who believes in the "fundamentals" of the faith (God and the Trinity, virgin birth, that salvation comes through Christ's sacrifice, resurrection of the Dead, Heaven and Hell, etc.) and that the majority of the Bible should be taken literally and factually.

                (Please note: a reasonable fundamentalist can and does believe that portions of the Bible are poetry or heavily symbolic, especially the Book of Revelation)

                A Born-Again Christian----a person who recognized that they were sinners and had a faith-experience in which they gave their life to God. Sometimes, but not always, associated with Baptism.

                Modernist---a Christian that doesn't view scripture as poetry or a work of literary art expressing some good moral principles. They believe much of the supernatural content of the Bible to be far-fetched.

                Social Gospel---the movement based on the idea that scripture should inspire people to help the poor and needy to make "heaven on earth."

                A Conservative Christian---Fundamentalist Evangelical who sees scripture as supporting a rigid, conservative social order as well as a moral sense of right and wrong.

                A Progressive Christian---a Christian (could be Evangelical and/or Fundamentalist, but often neither) that views scripture as supporting their world-view of peace, understanding and tolerance, as well as a moral sense of right and wrong.

                ----------------

                I personally am a Fundamentalist, Born-again Progressive Christian. I believe in the fundamentals of the Bible, I had a faith-experience that brought me to God, and I believe that Jesus would vote for a Socialist before he voted for George W. Bush any day of the week.

                I'm not comfortable with the term "Evangelical" because I'm not obsessed with converting anyone. If anyone wants to hear my story, they can ask.

                Caution! These are shark-infested waters! http://jayshark.blogspot.com

                by Jonathan4Dean on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 11:03:38 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Excellent post! (none)
                  I stand corrected.  

                  Wow! I'm going to have to create a PDF just for your entry ... I must save your definitions!

                  Being brought up Catholic by a mother who can best be described as a "Born Again Catholic" long before I ever heard the term used at all, I can relate to the nuances around various shades of Christian belief.  The Catholics were probably the original Evangelicals.  I vividly recall the appeals every month or so at Mass to donate money to support the work Catholic missionaries across the globe.

                  I was raised during the heydey of Modernist Catholicism and was a fervent "Modernist" in grammar and high school. While in college I came face-to-face with the hypocrisy of the Church hierarchy via some interesting experiences that foreshadowed the Catholic Church's recent "problems" and their whitewash of it all.

                  Today I consider myself a Modernist Non-Denominational Believer.

                  I would love to hear your story...

                  "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

                  by Glinda on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 11:32:06 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I appreciate it (none)
                    but please note I made a mistake: a modernist DOES view scripture as highly symbolic and/or poetic.

                    -------

                    Modernists generally break down into two camps: those that believe the essence and overall message of scripture to be true (that God exists and loves mankind) but the Bible is a flawed book.

                    I personally have no problem with most of these folks; they represent many of the liberal Christians I know and love.

                    But there also those Modernists who go further---and argue that the Bible and much of the Christian experience is sexist, homophobic, and overall antiquated.

                    I think of as "Zell Miller" Christians---those who are essentially agnostics in their approach, but don't have the heart to distance themselves from the religion.

                    Caution! These are shark-infested waters! http://jayshark.blogspot.com

                    by Jonathan4Dean on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 11:23:40 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  My story, in brief (none)
                    I'm the son of a non-denominational Protestant minister.

                    My father generally votes for Republicans, my mother generally votes for Democrats. Both are pretty conservative across the board.

                    I'm the grandchild of devout Christians/Democrats (who are like most old folks---social conservatives but on domestic issues like social security are VERY liberal).

                    I'm engaged to a Catholic girl who is far more liberal than I am.

                    I consider myself a moderate Democrat and a Fundamentalist Christian. I believe the Bible to be mostly literal and inspired by God. I don't attend church as often as I should, but when I was baptized at age 11 (yes, immersion) I had a strong, "born again" experience.

                    My religion influences my politics, and my world-view influences my religious faith. And neither lead me to feel inspired to vote for Republicans.

                    -----------
                    An anecdote on "the God gap":

                    At a recent meeting of around 200 independent and liberal pundits/news commentators, the moderator/speaker asked two questions:

                    "How many of you know someone who is openly gay?"

                    At least 150 raised their hands.

                    "How many of you know someone who is a born-again Christian?"

                    Two out of two hundred hands went up.

                    Caution! These are shark-infested waters! http://jayshark.blogspot.com

                    by Jonathan4Dean on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 11:37:58 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, I have to disagree (none)
        On the two most important issues of the day, the Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war, Dean positioned himself DECIDEDLY to the left of every other mainstream candidate.

        What other candidate said they opposed the war from the start AND wanted to repeal all of the Bush tax cuts?

        Dean's record as a Governor? Conservative by Democratic standards.

        Dean's overall policy ideas? Moderate by Democratic standards.

        But the way he ran in 2004? A liberal maverick.

        And, in all likelihood, the way he will run in 2008? As a liberal maverick.

        Caution! These are shark-infested waters! http://jayshark.blogspot.com

        by Jonathan4Dean on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:59:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  How is that liberal? (none)
          True, traditional Lefties were against the war, as they are with most wars as were the Pacifists, by definition.  But I know a few traditional conservatives who also were against our involvement in Iraq.  And I know a few self-described liberals who were terrified of those WMDs and so reluctantly supported the war.

          I think a better description is that Dean took a "principled stance" against the war.  He was more of a "skeptic" than a "liberal" on the war.  And at the time I couldn't figure out why everyone wasn't being more skeptical.  That war was so obviously marketed to us.  The language they chose in their speeches was the fuzzy double-meaning language of Madison Avenue. I can't figure out why the majority of Americans were so shocked that there weren't any WMDs. It seemed obvious to me that it was based on no real intelligence. But maybe I'm just lucky that I live in NYC and have access to a lot more information from all sides of the spectrum. Even NYC cabdrivers knew we were all being sold a bill of goods.

          As for the Bush tax cuts, the part of Dean's argument against the cuts that objected to the decidedly non-progressive nature of them is indeed a liberal position.  But on the other hand, his position that it is irresponsible to  cut taxes when you are waging a very expensive war is a fiscally conservative position.  Budget deficits are abhored by conservatives; liberals traditionally didn't mind small budget deficits in time of war during the middle part of the last centruy.  But only neo-cons have no problem with deficits of any size if they are allowed to pursue their dual ends of tax relief for the wealthy and re-making the world as they would like it.

          Dean is indeed a maverick. And there are a lot of "liberal democrats" in power who very much want the status quo, even if they are not in power since the status quo is what gets them power.  Reform in this case doesn't make him a "liberal".  It does however make him a "reformist".

          [I'm making this my diary entry for today as well.  At this late time, no one will actually see this.]

          "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

          by Glinda on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 05:25:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's style and substance (none)
            Dean was an enigmatic candidate because as a Governor, he was a perfect DLC candidate. Hell, he was more pro-business and anti-tax than most people on Daily Kos.

            But he saw the void in the party for a serious, passionate anti-war candidate and he filled it.

            In 2003, Dean went to a DNC meeting and began his electrifying speech by roaring, "What I want to know is why all these Washington Democrats aren't standing up against George Bush's unilateral war in Iraq! I'm Howard Dean and I represent the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party!"

            A lot of reasonable conservative folks opposed the war, you're right. But no one criticized Bush and conservatives as eloquently and passionately as Dean. No mainstream candidate embraced the frustrated Left by claiming their mantle.

            Ideologically? He ran the gamit. But he did take liberal positions on the issues that bothered Democrats most---tax cuts, the Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind, and Iraq.

            Sadly, Democrats fell in love with Dean, but were soured when they read the Tom Brokaw-Tim Russert-RNC inspired conventional wisdom:

            "Dean can't win against Bush. He'd get slaughtered in 47 states just like his liberal buddy McGovern."

            Oh well.

            Caution! These are shark-infested waters! http://jayshark.blogspot.com

            by Jonathan4Dean on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:36:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  P.S. (none)
              My advice to Howard Dean (if he wants to run in 2008): kiss and make up with the moderates in the party.

              To win, he has to run both an unconventional internet campaign AND a conventional GOTV campaign.

              And to run an effective conventional campaign? You need minorities, elderly voters, and yes, moderates.

              Kerry won the primaries because he carried a reasonable minority of liberals, a plurality of moderates, and a reasonable minority of conservatives.

              Flex your moderate-to-conservative credentials. Speak at the DLC. Talk about fiscal responsibility. Talk about gun control. Talk about the role of morality in your decision making.

              But in all of this, never lose your passion and truthfulness.

              Caution! These are shark-infested waters! http://jayshark.blogspot.com

              by Jonathan4Dean on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:42:07 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

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