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  •  That's a scary tree you're shaking (4.00)
    what about atheists?
    I was raised by two of them.  Does that mean i was raised without morals?

    Just another sheeple wondering what the flock everyone else is doing.

    by coffeegrrl on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 07:54:57 PM PST

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    •  Even if you are atheist (none)
      I am an agnostic myself.

      But you have to admit that if you trace your morals far enough you will find they are rooted in religion.

      •  true (none)
        The Greeks and the Romans.  good point.

        It's time to reject a President that says to the American people 'Ignore my record, forget my failures and fear the future.' - Kerry Campaign

        by Armando on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 08:23:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  No, Not Quite (none)
        Morals come from people, not religion.

        Religion comes from people, remember?

        Morals are what people generally decide that they are.  Morals change with people.

        Do the words 'Victorian era' ring any bells?

        If communities tend to reduce the role of religion in members' lives, the more they tend to utilize other institutions to justify, enforce and disseminate morality and other rules of personal/social conduct.

        The idea that religion spawns moral or, more accurately put, acceptable and consciencious behavior, puts the cart before the horse.

        Scandinavians aren't generally less moral people, they're just generally less religious.

      •  I am an atheist (none)
        and my morals have absolutely nothing to do with religion, thank you very much.

        Death row is filled with penitents. Atheists are no more or less moral than anyone else; just less hypocritical about the rationale for our actions in the world.

      •  Switcheroo (none)
        OR is religion instead rooted in morals? This holy mystery thing we call religion could just be the codified wisdom of the ages, passed down from generation to generation of humans from the primate days as the practical rules that allow people to live together. Things that are ancient enough become faint in the fog of time and we mythologize them, assigning them special significance since they seem to be uncanny wisdom emanating from the mysterious past. I'm just saying, you have to allow for the possibility.
      •  Values rooted in religion? (a la Joe L.) (none)
        Possibly.  But then, shouldn't you be arguing your well-taken point with Lieberman?  He's the one who clearly contrasts religion (and the values it bestows) with secularism (and its "lack" of values) in the quotation above. You seem to take the opposite tack, which is that religion and secularism are false dichotomies.

        Sure, one could easily make the case that morality is rooted historically in religion (of one kind or another). But I doubt that was Lieberman's point.  He was pretty strongly implying that "secularists" necessarily lack the moral values of "religious" people.  As a good Protestant (UCC), I believe this is simply not a sustainable opinion if one has any meaningful breadth of experience, and I suspect it's not sustainable in Lieberman's experience either.  Which makes his pronouncements seem even more craven.

      •  I have to admit that what's false is true? (none)
        No, I don't have to admit any such thing.  My ethics are rooted in my upbringing, which had no religious element.  Tracing them further, they are rooted in human culture, which is rooted in human biology as a social species.
        •  And when you think about it (none)
          - basic morality must have predated religion by eons. After all, the latter depends on language, a rather recent development. If our evolutionary ancestors hadn't been biologically disposed for altruism - at least within the primary social group - then the hominid line would have crashed and burned long before that.

          Europeans are to Americans what Greeks were to Romans. Educated slaves. - Luigi Berzini

          by Sirocco on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 04:16:00 AM PST

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      •  Morals Rooted in Religion (none)
        If a "moral" is something that has to come from an "authority" then maybe morals come from religion. But, even then, they really come from something you have chosen. So, they don't really come from the authority, they come from your own choice.

        By "morals" you seem to mean "a system of beliefs about what kind of conduct is right and what kind is wrong." Most religions have sets of morals and you can pick up your set by going to a religion and adopting theirs.

        But some people just don't. They either develop their own set, based on their own experience or they adopt one from a non-religious source. (I suggest liberalism as a source, but what does that mean? In my case, it means going back for guidance to specific people, like Thomas Jefferson, John Stuart Mill and Bertrand Russell; going back to certain documents, like the U.S. Constitution; and, using logic and my own observations to supplement that.)

        I think morals based on liberalism are compatible with most religious systems of morals. That doesn't make them religious. But maybe it's a comforting thought.

        Maybe it just doesn't feel like you made the choice yourself, like it came from your spiritual self. I can understand someone saying that all morality is rooted in spirituality, if that means that it's hard to point to a specific source in the physical world where the morals seem to come from. I'm worried that that just avoids responsibility. All our thoughts "come from" somewhere. Can you tell me where they originate? Looks like magic to me!

        Liberal Thinking

        Think, liberally.

        by Liberal Thinking on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 01:24:24 AM PST

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        •  morals and religion (none)
          Someone can go pick the morals they want from their choice of religions, but that doesn't mean anything at all.  Religion must be bona fide or its useless.  Bona fide in this case means it came from God.  If it didn't, it's bogus religion and a bogus moral system.

          If God loves cows but you pick a religion that condones beef eating, tough luck for you.

          "As many hairs as the slain beast has, so often indeed will he who killed it without a (lawful) reason suffer a violent death in future births." (Manu-samhita.5.38)

          Sri Caitanya-caritamrta,(Adi-lila, Chapter 17, verse 166): "Cow killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow."

          Vegetarianism: Recommended in Vedic Scripture

          Hare Krishna

      •  WRONG! (none)
        just not true, morals are rooted in philosophy, of which religion is a popularization.

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