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View Diary: Dedicated to Drunk Obama Haters in Israel (219 comments)

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  •  congratulations (8+ / 0-)

    on devising a means of identifying "intention" for writers. Please expand upon your methods at your leisure, as there are generations of philosophers and literary scholars who will be relieved that you've solved a heretofore intractable problem.

    •  As this has been diaried before and (5+ / 0-)

      any such search would reveal it, it is no great stretch of imagination to reveal intent.

      It is also on an I/P topic which in and of itself is known to inflame and the very video would be known to inflame people.

      So you have a video which is on a topic already known to cause inflamed reaction, that is very inflamatory being posted that has already been posted multiple times.

      So, to you this requires a great leap in logic as to what the intent of the author in posting the video was?

      A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying. -B.F. Skinner

      by BFSkinner on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 02:51:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  by your logic (7+ / 0-)

        Then, Benjamin Hartman -- the analyst at Ha'aretz to which Lepanto directs us -- intended to inflame the situation, because he includes the video in an opinion piece that he notes has already gone viral (i.e., has already been reproduced and commented on hundreds, thousands, etc. of times).

        Sorry, BF. No positive reinforcement for your behavior.

        •  Indeed, and DK is not Ha'aretz. The video here (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CN

          and there, the analysis here and there, etc. differs. As this is not the first time this was reported here and it was offered as it was I stand by my analysis.

          A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying. -B.F. Skinner

          by BFSkinner on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 03:23:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  HRed for intent to inflame. (3+ / 0-)

        How do I know?  I just do, that's all.

      •  BF (9+ / 0-)

        after your comparison of a dkos member to a Nazi collaborator, I hardly think you're one to talk about "inflammatory" rhetoric.

        We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians. --Nelson Mandela, Pretoria December 4th 1997

        by sortalikenathan on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 03:11:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Indeed. And my use of the comparison to Jon (2+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          oldskooldem, AmbroseBurnside
          Hidden by:
          blueness

          has nothing to do with any I/P issue. His behavior is directly relevant to such comparisons based on actual (sober) statements he has made and repeated multiple times with multiple relationships he has made. This differs from filming a bunch of idiotic kids drunk, getting asked questions.

          If these were soliders, sober, and they were saying the same thing then this video would have more importance and should be posted. However getting a video of drunk kids muttering drunk views is far different.

          A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying. -B.F. Skinner

          by BFSkinner on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 03:26:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza, blueness, csquared, Bidet, hurburble

            that this video is overplayed and that it should not be taken to represent large groups of anyone. But I don't think dismissing racist rants of anyone by saying it's just some "drunk kids muttering drunk views" is constructive, however, particularly when those "drunk views" use the N word over and over.

            I emphatically disagree with your characterization of Jon, which was shameful. I can't pretend to know what kinds of thoughts or experiences you have had that would lead you to make such a comparison, but I lost all respect for you after that. And it does discredit your accusations of others posting "inflammatory" content. You really have zero credibility on that issue.

            Take care.

            We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians. --Nelson Mandela, Pretoria December 4th 1997

            by sortalikenathan on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 03:41:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  In all honesty your approval or non-approval (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              oldskooldem, AmbroseBurnside

              as to my views of Jon do not really matter to me. I, and many others have noted why we have great issues with Jon. Your agreement with our reasons for thinking of Jon as we do, or disagreement with them does not make them any more (or less) valid.

              The fact that Jon is viewed by many Jewish users on here as he is, who are progressive and often supported by many other people for their views on other issues, in such a negative way suggests something to me.

              The majority of Jewish people here who have difficulties with Jon's views and statements suddenly are attacked as being bad people for holding such views. The vast majority of Jewish people on here who read Jon do not stand up and say  "Jon is a good person, a proud Jewish person, and I accept his views as good to our people"

              The people who are Jewish who do say things to Jon, in fact, say the opposite. How can so many Progressive Jewish people hold such views? Are they lying about being progressive? Do they just 'have it in' for Jon? Or could it well be that Jon is not 'all that good' of a person? That we, above and beyond I/P, might have valid reasons for our views of him?

              On I/P issues more often then not I am on the side of pragmatic peace in so far as we need peace we cannot have hardliners on either side, we need to sit together and work for a solution. My disagreement with Jon is nothing to do with his I/P views.

              However to deny the voice of people who dislike Jon for his stated actions and views, for attacking us as less then credibile when it is not just 1 or 2 people but many of us Jewish people who know of him, seems to get at your own credibility on this issue.

              A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying. -B.F. Skinner

              by BFSkinner on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 03:58:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'll just note (6+ / 0-)

                that having difficulty with Jon's views is one thing. Making the comparison that you did is quite another.

                I see things quite differently. I do not seek validation in group think, or the approval of others of my ethnic group, and I don't think pointing to 10 users on dkos who agree with your absurd analogy proves much. And with regards to the I/P topic, I would hardly characterize the Jewish posters who piggy-backed on your Nazi analogy as progressives. I am actually quite confident that of all of you, Jon would be the first to stand up to fascism. That you have problems with his identity and political positions is fine; that it would lead you to make such an outlandish comparison is much more reflective of your issues than anything related to Jon.

                I too do not much value your pedestrian opinions. Often, pragmatism is a cover for cowardice.

                Best wishes.

                We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians. --Nelson Mandela, Pretoria December 4th 1997

                by sortalikenathan on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 04:20:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  HRed (6+ / 0-)

            for again defending an indefensible comparison between a Jewish Kossack and a Nazi collaborator directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews.

      •  And yet (4+ / 0-)

        you recommended Ambrose Burnside's post of a video above of a Mickey Mouse clone purporting to teach "hatred and Islamic superiority" to Palestinian children.
        Can you tell us what AB's intent is in posting that video?

        •  You will have to ask him as to why he posted that (2+ / 0-)

          video.

          My rec came from avoiding the double standard:

          If we say, as DK, that the views of drunken anti-peace asses is news and should be posted to show people that there are some in Israel that do not want peace, that are asses, etc., then there should be the same willingness to post videos that show the same views on the other side of the debate, and if one video is making the claim that 'some Israeli people' have this view then there is nothing wrong with this second video.

          A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying. -B.F. Skinner

          by BFSkinner on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 04:18:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wait a minute (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueness, sortalikenathan, hurburble

            The diarist posts a video, and you know what their intent is:

            So you have a video which is on a topic already known to cause inflamed reaction, that is very inflamatory being posted that has already been posted multiple times.

            So, to you this requires a great leap in logic as to what the intent of the author in posting the video was?

            To avoid a double standard, you should have hide rated  AB's video just as you did the diarist's tip jar, not recommended it.

            •  I will do so then as soon as everyone Recs his (0+ / 0-)

              video, also to avoid the same double standard, nu?

              A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying. -B.F. Skinner

              by BFSkinner on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 04:55:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Okay (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueness, sortalikenathan, hurburble

                moving the goal posts now?

                •  Not at all, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  zhimbo

                  My point is that:

                  1. A word of drunken idiocy is not policy.
                  1. People who post the video do so to inflame, as it is obvious that I.P. is a topic bound to do so, and this video for what it is is bound to do so even more.
                  1. The people in the video do not at all reflect any policy by Israel's government, i.e. it is a bunch of drunk kids making idiotic statements. Their views were given when asked but not put on television, etc.
                  1. The video given by AB was also meant to inflame, however it was put up on various market station television programs/stations, which could not have been done without the OK from political decision makers.
                  1. You view my rec'ing AB's video as being hypocritical, I point out I rec it as pointing out the double standard that exists often here on DK. A video that is of two idiotic kids is rec'd, and one sponsored and shown, just as inflamatory but on the other side, is ignored by the same people.
                  1. The people who rec the one and not the other seem to be exhibiting the double standard here. I do as well, and I admit it. However I rec it to call attention to the fact that there are no differences between the two. If one is right then they both should be. The fact that people attack AB for putting up his video and also rec the original video is a double standard.

                  A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying. -B.F. Skinner

                  by BFSkinner on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 05:20:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The diarist never said or even implied (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    blueness, Conure, hurburble

                    that this video represented anything more than what it was- "Drunk Obama Haters in Israel".
                    Now, I have not read any other diaries on this subject, as I said above it's the first time I've seen it, but nowhere does the diarist say or imply that this reflects any policy of Israel's.
                    And because AB's video was seen on TV (was it in Israel, by any chance?) and this was not, does not make AB's video any less inflammatory or any more true.
                    And your comment here:

                    However I rec it to call attention to the fact that there are no differences between the two. If one is right then they both should be. The fact that people attack AB for putting up his video and also rec the original video is a double standard.

                    You're not calling attention to anything, because you're doing the exact same thing they are.

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