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View Diary: Obama's Soft Power - a primer on Aikido (303 comments)

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  •  Really? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    viscerality, buhdydharma

    When he met with human rights workers a few weeks ago it was because they had become a political force, and part of that force was (and will continue to be) fueled by bloggers.

    As part of that group, I'm not "disappointed" by Obama.  He does his job, I do mine, as a citizen.

    You can praise Obama without putting down bloggers and others who are working hard for change.  And I wish you would.

    •  "I wish you would" (4+ / 0-)

      And you opinion matters to me because? I wish you all would stop using terms like "bot" and if you personally don't, your friends do. Therefore, because I said "I wish you would" I assume there will be a change.

      And I put noone down. I believe that SHOUTING is ineffective and our President will not respond to that tactic. If he met with these workers, it was due to his own agenda, or because this issue was DISCUSSED with him. But I did not know this news about the HR workers and I thank you for the info. Keep on fueling. That makes sense.

      •  I don't use ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        viscerality, buhdydharma

        ... those terms.  I also wish folks would stop using them as well.

        With the HR workers it was indeed in part because of what you call "shouting."  I don't call it that except as a metaphor, of course.  Obama met with the HR folks because they had become politically impossible to ignore, not because it was on his "agenda."

        Yeah, I think you were indeed putting folks down by way of building Obama up -- the comparison is pretty clear as to that.  But sure, my opinion doesn't have to matter to you at all.  I'm just expressing it as every commenter here does.

      •  Haha! (0+ / 0-)

        A perfect microcosm!

        Her opinion doesn't matter to you.....

        But you responded to her 'shouting' anyway. She 'made you do it,' lol.

        Can you please detail how citizens ARE supposed to be heard by our government if we don't have the access to DISCUSS it with them?

        The HR workers did indeed get the access, the opportunity, to DISCUSS the issues with Obama because they yelled loud enough to 'make him do it.'

        You always put down yelling, but you never offer an alternative that works.

        I say again, being polite gets you nowhere in politics.

        Politics is about power, our power is our voice.

        .

        So.....how do we raise important issues without making noise?

        •   Then, stop (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          buhdydharma, pinkbunny

          and arguing with me - it is a total waste of your power, and go tend to your alternative. "Haha" makes this sound like a contest with me. How silly. My opinion is not important to you. Let's move on.

          •  Nope! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nightprowlkitty

            Shout as much as you want, but I believe this is a man who - another cliche - marches to the beat...he will listen, but obey "demands?"

            I am 'countering force with force.'

            Your comment is a 'direct attack' on me (shout obviously = yell)

            If you attack me with force, as you did, I will respond with force.

            Deal.

        •  I think you can raise them (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AikidoPilgrim, buhdydharma

          but i have seen way too many comments that are over the top about one side or the other extreme.

          And of course out comes the "bush apologists" or the You'rejust like Sean Hannity or a freeper comment etc"

          I'm not saying you do it, but I am saying in general there's a lot that.

          Also too many "you're an idiot", "obamabot", "dear leader" comments as well.

          People don't limit discussions to why they think one philosophy or viewpoint is the right viewpoint in their opinion, they go too far and they have to attack the person.

          The funny thing is, I see alot of people mad, even this is a good example, about how one of the commentators was offended by the comment "angry blogger".

          Why? Because they felt belittled and disrespected. So they go on the offensive because they are mad, and yet they don't see that they can also be disrespectful of other people who might have differing viewpoints.

          I'm saying a lot of people are guilty of this at one point or another - me included.

          Of course when I do it, I do get ashamed, because it totally wasn't needed, nor was it value added.

          Generally we should all respect each other regardless of what our viewpoints are (except for the genuine trolls and you know who I am referring to)

          No one is ever going to 100% disagree on a point on this site, and why should we. We are a wide tent here. Sometimes I have changed my viewpoint when I see a good argument. But usually I get quickly turned off, if I think someone is being disrespectful about it.

          My experience tells me before you can understand a person, you have to respect that person. If the respect isn't there, forget trying to get to any sort of mutual understanding or truly listening to what the other person has to say.

          People say that politics is not polite - I think that's B.S.

          It's a choice, not a condition. If you choose to be a jerk about things, what makes you think anyone should respect what you say?

          People are obviously going to be passionate about their viewpoints, and that's a good thing.

          I just don't think you get anywhere if you cross the line to being offensive and disrespectful of another person.

          Why do you think so many newbies are always asking people to be gentle.

          Yeah people should get tough skins, and not take tings personally, but at the same time, when you take it too far, then you just end up "shouting" down all other voices figuratively speaking.

          "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" - Thomas Paine

          by pinkbunny on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 01:28:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Is Newt polite? Is Free Republic? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            viscerality

            Are, lol, people on Dkos?

            We are dealing with a vicious aggressive opponent.

            Obama has the power of the Presidency behind him, so he can use subtler methods.

            But we are the foot soldiers, and soldiers have to fight differently than Presidents/Generals.

            Someone has to meet force with force in the trenches, not force with politeness. Both in the political arena...and...haha...on the blogs....as I say here.

            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            I will expand the concept and relate it further to the Kung Fu philosophy on request!

            •  Heh ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              buhdydharma

              ... just noticed that pinkbunny rec'd anotherCTDem's disrespectful response to you and not your comments.

              I'm sick of this hypocrisy.

              This isn't about respect at all.

              It's about what people feel comfortable with.  And it's about everything except the truth.

              •  No I reccd it because it was getting out of hand (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                buhdydharma

                and childish.

                Budhy made his/her point and then decided to push it instead of trying to get the other poster to see why their viewpoint was wrong.

                "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" - Thomas Paine

                by pinkbunny on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 02:34:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I have done that in the past (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Nightprowlkitty

                  many times. In the past I have deflected her attacks.

                  So it was her first comment 'attacking' me that was the origin of the energy. She escalated the fight from the past.

                  She pushed....again....and I responded.

                  Iow....she has refused over and over to see why her viewpoint was wrong....as evidenced by her NOT being able to answer 'the question'....but still attacking.

                  THIS time, I fought back.

                •  Childish. (0+ / 0-)

                  How is that showing respect?

                  Sorry, it's easy to give respect when you agree with someone.

                  Not so easy when you don't.

                  I looked at it that she was being disrespectful by  not engaging and instead making it personal.

                  See, it's subjective, isn't it?

                  But then I'm not the one writing a long comment on how respect is important.  I do  my best to show it and don't tend to use words like "childish" when characterizing someone else.

              •  You can think that if you like (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                buhdydharma

                But you just want to justify being disrespectful when you're feelings are hurt, but that you don't feel the need to extend to others? Go right ahead...

                Obviously we are two very different minds on this!

                "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" - Thomas Paine

                by pinkbunny on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 02:38:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  As I say above, you don't know the history (0+ / 0-)
                  •  No you are right (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    buhdydharma

                    I don't know the context of the history. I don't know what happens between you and the other poster.

                    So probably I shouldn't have gotten involved. But i tend to get a little involved when I see an under-dog, not neccessarily saying the original poster you had a problem with needed me to stick up for him/her or whatever. I just tend to say something when I see someone being picked on.

                    I think you made your point with the original poster, and then I felt you were almost to the point of harrassment, so then I felt it was a little unfair.

                    You punch someone once to get them back fine. You make your point. You can take it too far with the punching, that's all I am getting at.

                    Maybe it's all this talk about the akido, but it makes me think of the Karate Kid for some reason, you don't have to take it to the end with your enemy. Show some grace too.

                    But again, that's just my philosophy and outlook on life. It's not better, just mine.

                    "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" - Thomas Paine

                    by pinkbunny on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 03:15:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Karate kid? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Nightprowlkitty

                      You mean at the end when the kid has taken the abuse from the bullies over and over and then finally fights back and wins? LOL

                      Yeah I agree. I have taken that posters punches through this whole movie and finally had enough of her attacks and fought back.

                      I guess it depends on when you come into the movie how you see the things.

                      Of course her pose as the victim....after being the one who attacked....probably influenced you too?

                      •  No I'm talking about the fact that the (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        buhdydharma

                        the evil guy was telling him to finish him off, and so Mr. Miyagi was giving him a dose of his own medicine at the end.

                        He was about to show that guy no mercy - but he stopped, because it wasn't about taking to the end.

                        Even though in the tournament that kid cheated by doing something illegal to Daniel, he didn't retaliate in the same way. Did he punch abck and make his point? Yeah but he did it with sportmanship

                        - so maybe you and I didn't see the same movie?

                        Maybe that's the word I have been looking for this whole time - sportsmanship?

                        "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" - Thomas Paine

                        by pinkbunny on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 03:32:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  I thought about this (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    buhdydharma

                    while I was out and I realized you and Kitty are right. I have no respect for you. I think you and your photos story and your vendettas and gotcha games are crazy. The reason I will NEVER take the time to answer you is because you twist and misrepresent everything your "opponent" says. It is also a ridiculous waste of time whether or not you and I agree about anything. If it's about your "winning" interactions with other members here - cool, you won. It means squat. And Kitty, as I'm sure you are reading this, I did blow you off, and that was wrong.

                    •  Well ... (0+ / 0-)

                      ... I knew you blew me off and appreciate your acknowledgment.

                      I don't care if you like me or like buhdy or respect either of us.

                      This isn't personal.

                      You're making the claim that our strategies are "crazy."  I showed you they got real results.  Both buhdy and I, as well as a lot of other bloggers, worked really hard on the special prosecutor project.

                      The results were numerous.  Obama got asked on network TV about torture because Bob Fertik yelled louder on Obama's website, buhdy promoted it, and the question made number one and got on mainstream media for the first time.

                      The human rights organizations got to meet Obama because we all yelled louder to promote their hard work and they got enough political capital to meet with him.  It gives credit to Obama that he was smart enough to know this and respond -- unlike Bush and Cheney who didn't give a shit what the public thought.

                      You don't have to respect us.  But what's your point in putting this strategy down?  Your original comment could have left that part out and still been perfectly fine.

                      If you don't want these kinds of fights, then please don't continue to make the kinds of comments where you DO put this strategy down.  That would immediately make it so that you'd never have to deal with either of us again in a way that none of us enjoy.

                •  Dishonest. (0+ / 0-)

                  In your own comment you say:

                  I'm not saying you do it, but I am saying in general there's a lot that.

                  But you ARE saying he does that and you're admitting it here.

                  How is that being respectful?

                  This is why I'm usually skeptical when I read long comments calling for politeness and respect.  The reality, given your behavior here, is about comfort, not respect.  You are more comfortable with anotherCTDem's insults than buhdy's.

                  That's fine.

                  But then don't preach about respect when you don't show it and aren't honest about it upfront.

                  •  No that was in context to another point (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nightprowlkitty

                    What are you going for a gotcha moment?

                    So please don't tell me I am being dishonest. Maybe I didn't express my point well enough, but that's a communciation gap.

                    When I made that point about budy not doing it, I was referring to the fact that he ahd pushed the limit of making his point with the original poster.

                    READ MY ENTIRE COMMENT, the context in which I wrote that point that I budy hadn't said anything extreme like Bush Apologist or that the commentator was like Sean Hannity. THAT IS WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO!

                    but i have seen way too many comments that are over the top about one side or the other extreme.

                    And of course out comes the "bush apologists" or the You'rejust like Sean Hannity or a freeper comment etc"

                    I'm not saying you do it, but I am saying in general there's a lot that.

                    So stop with the clipping of quotes out of context.

                    Look you want to see me as the bad guy go ahead. You have preconceived notions anyway - so anythign I say you will mis-interpret willingly because you don't like me.

                    Again - do with it what you will. Clearly you have no respect for me, and by default, I've just lost any respect for you.

                    "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" - Thomas Paine

                    by pinkbunny on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 03:10:42 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You have to have respect ... (0+ / 0-)

                      ... in order to lose it.  You don't know me so I find it unlikely you have or don't have respect for me.

                      You also recommended anotherCTDem's comment to me, another disrespectful comment which made it personal instead of about the issue, which is what I was talking about.

                      I didn't see you calling her "childish," etc.

                      And again, if you agree with her, that's fine -- but then don't put up a long comment on respect and expect me not to question it.

                      Thanks for the clarification on the line I quoted, I did misrepresent it -- and that was also how I originally read it which is why I quoted it.

                      I'm not trying for any gotcha moment.

                      I am frustrated by folks characterizing those of us who "yell louder" and then when called on it make it a matter of "respect."  I think you have done this with buhdy and are now doing it with me.

                      It's not a matter of good guys or bad guys, pinkbunny.  Either anotherCTDem is wrong or right about how effective "shouting" and "holding feet to the fire" is when it comes to Obama.  I showed that it was effective by talking about a project I was involved in where the shouting was an integral part of Obama ending up meeting with human rights organizations.

                      Her words for this process was "boring" and she used Obama's strategies to compare with ones I showed worked in a very disrespectful way.  When I pointed that out, I was blown off.  And you rec'd that comment.

                      So yeah, I'd say your judgment is questionable in this -- as is your assumption of whether I do or do not respect you.  I don't know you.  I only can deal with the words you put out and your own behavior.

                  •  By the way - I wasn't calling for teaching (0+ / 0-)

                    I only made it a point to share my  viewpoint - that is allowed isn't?

                    Or I guess from your point of view, I should just STFU huh?

                    "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" - Thomas Paine

                    by pinkbunny on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 03:17:30 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Ok - funny enough you are the person who (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              buhdydharma

              advocates on doing the right thing.

              But here it's all out who cares what anyone thinks? You have to stoop to their level?

              we know what they say is ridiculous and complete disrespectful.

              I just don't see the need to be as idiotic and ridiculous, as they are.

              If you think you need to fight ugly words with more ugly words - that's your perogative.

              "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" - Thomas Paine

              by pinkbunny on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 02:37:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  We didn't fight for years (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Nightprowlkitty

                and look where it got us.

                Right?

                •  Who says not to fight? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  buhdydharma

                  Certainly not me - as i said - should we be passionate about our issues - absolutely!

                  You have to care about something to make it happen.

                  Alot of the times, people have lack of empathy or indifference, and that's when a lot of evil can occur.

                  What I am saying is the method in which we achieve it.

                  We say torture is wrong - why? Because it's violent suffering forced on others and even though we are at war, you respect your prisoners. If our enemies were to torture our soldiers, we would still say it's wrong.

                  You know when two kids fight - and believe me my sisters and I did are share of fighting, we would pinch each other or call each other names, and we would say that the other person started - so obviously it called on the exact same response in return.

                  I'm not saying i'm a goody two shoes by any stretch of imagine - I've done my share of swearing and calling out of the freepers. If i had a wish, I would love to throw rotten eggs and tomatoes at Cheney, his daughter, hannity, and especially that Randall Terry guy, I would love to throw dog crap on him.

                  Doesn't make it the right thing to do, because then you just have the other side doing the same thing to our candidates.

                  Personally I hate the hate speech and the rhetoric that the right throws at Obama, saying he's just like Stalin etc, so anyone who is reasonable can't take them seriously.

                  If I want to be taken seriously, then I have to be judicious in what I say, that's all I am saying. Sometimes humor is needed, sometimes you just need to throw in a little bit of snark. But too much, and it just boils down to childish back and forth.

                  It turns things away from serious attention and focus on the issue, and just dissolves into worthless flame wars. And I just find those a waste of time. But then again, I also find video games a waste of time. So maybe I'm just weird.

                  "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" - Thomas Paine

                  by pinkbunny on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 03:27:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  IMO, it is a matter of style (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nightprowlkitty

                    and temperament.

                    Some of us are suited to certain styles of fighting and others to others.

                    As I say here.

                    http://www.dailykos.com/...

                    The difference is that some people insist on denigrating the styles of others, as the poster in question does.

                  •  Very well spoken (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    NLinStPaul

                    The screeching hysteria, where every act of your opponent is "the worst thing EVER" and "like Stalin/Hitler," and the automatic assumption is that if you don't agree with me then you're a BIGOT/HATER/FASCIST/COMMUNIST/etc. really doesn't do a lot for political discourse.

                    I do the bulk of my First Amendment work in the area of campaign finance, where the automatic assumption behind much of the rhetoric of the so-called "reformers" is that every time somebody votes a way the "reformers" don't like, it's "corruption" because they recieved "big money" from - well, pick your bogeyman - big labor, big business, big pharma, trial lawyers, big oil, "special interests," etc. Utterly absent is the recognition that people can disagree for good reasons, believe things different than what you believe in, and draw different conclusions based on something other than hatred, greed, and malice.

                    Hard to have a rational discussion with someone when you start with the assumption that they don't really believe what they're saying is their reason for supporting/opposing something.

                    Hats off for a thoughtful post, pinkbunny!

                    Sean Parnell
                    President
                    Center for Competitive Politics
                    http://www.campaignfreedom.org

                •  Forgot, I love it more when we fight their (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  buhdydharma

                  smears and hate speech with logic and facts.

                  "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" - Thomas Paine

                  by pinkbunny on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 03:28:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Who's the one who determines ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            viscerality

            ... when "you take it too far?"

            I made a comment with respect and got blown off.

            That's ok.  I responded anyway.

            I have feelings just like anyone else.

            It's in the eye of the beholder, imo.  Folks will say one is impolite and disrespectful for disagreeing or pointing out an inconvenient truth.

            May as well just say what you mean and take the consequences.

            •  It's a judgement thing (0+ / 0-)

              some people have it - some people don't.

              Alot of it has to do with social IQ. You can't exactly explain it, but everyone of us has been taught to some level of what is "acceptable" social behavior to a certain degree of confidence.

              I don't think there is exactly one rule or standard, which is why I say it's kind of more like a range of acceptance of what's in-bounds what's out of bounds.

              Example: to tell someone to drop dead - how do you know it's not acceptable? You just know. Of course there are going to be some out there who don't think that's right, but if you were to ask a substantial number of people, MOST not all would think it's not acceptable.

              "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" - Thomas Paine

              by pinkbunny on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 02:33:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It certainly is ... (0+ / 0-)

                ... a judgment thing.

                I find your judgment questionable given your recommending a comment telling buhdy he alienates folks and then saying in your comment it wasn't "necessarily" him you were referring to.

                Yeah, I do "know" when it's respect being called for and when it's something else entirely.

                As far as MOST people -- well I've never used the majority opinion as my guidepost.

                When blog arguments occur, both sides tend to go on and on about respect and who is and isn't being attacked.

                In that instance I tend to look for the truth of what's being argued and what's being claimed.  The truth can be a handy guide when it comes to knowing if one is being respected or not.

          •  Respect is EVERYTHING (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buhdydharma, Larsstephens

            It is the first principle, it is the single most powerful tool, and it is free. All it takes is courage and open-mindedness.

            Any questions about why we didn't see much of it during the Bush/Cheney years?

            "In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - Barack Obama

            by AikidoPilgrim on Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 02:09:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Heh (0+ / 0-)

              Can you describe the correct view or type of respect for us to have for opponents like Bush/Cheney?

            •  The poster ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              buhdydharma

              ... is referring to interaction on the blogs and, in particular, challenges to one another here at Daily Kos.

              In that instance, I wouldn't call it respect that is being called for in that comment, considering  how the poster rated during an argument, but rather comfort.

              I agree with you that respect is important (tho I'd say compassion is everything).

              But I don't think it was only during the Bush/Cheney years that we saw little respect.  It's pretty much always been a rare quality, especially in politics.

      •  Oh and WHICH of her friends 'do?' (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        viscerality

        Links please?

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