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View Diary: Netanyahu's Vision: A Palestine Without Sovereignty (52 comments)

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  •  Why the fuck would ANYONE want (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dcoronata, Nathan45

    them to be militarized? Are you insane?

    A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

    by Doodad on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 02:07:04 PM PDT

    •  "Are you insane?" (5+ / 0-)

      Hardly an invitation to reasoned dialogue, but nevertheless... given Israel's history of aggression and violent oppression, it's clear why Palestinians would want some form of deterrent against future Israeli attack. But you're asking the wrong question. Unless we're complete hypocrites, or unless we view Palestinians as lesser beings than ourselves and Israelis, the question to ask is: what right does Israel or anyone else have to selectively deny Palestinians the means to defend themselves?

      •  It's not about rights it's about (0+ / 0-)

        self-preservation...

        Israel aren't about to just hand the palestinians guns to kill them with just because you say it's the right thing to do.

        •  Oh please (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica, Bidet

          any future Palestinian state, militarised or not, would be virtually powerless, hemmed in by a hostile Jordanian-Israeli military alliance and would pose no threat whatsoever to Israel. It's frankly obscene for us to be talking about the alleged Palestinian threat to Israel while as we speak Israel is occupying, colonising and murdering Palestinians en masse with the third most powerful military on the planet. As Norman Finkelstein puts it:

          Surely you see that if you're going to advocate Palestinian demilitarisation on the grounds that Palestinians might pose a threat to Israel, on that same basis you should be demanding the demilitarisation of Israel, and far more forcefully. Of course this only applies if we consider Palestinians to be equal human beings whose rights are no less important than those of Israelis.

          •  An internationalist perspective (0+ / 0-)

            on this is issue is pointless...

            Surely you see that if you're going to advocate Palestinian demilitarisation on the grounds that Palestinians might pose a threat to Israel, on that same basis you should be demanding the demilitarisation of Israel, and far more forcefully. Of course this only applies if we consider Palestinians to be equal human beings whose rights are no less important than those of Israelis.

            Netanyahu was elected to protect Israeli interests not Palestinian interests. never forget that.

            The Palestinians will continue to be powerless and the Israelis will continue to be armed to the teeth, both for the same reason:  The Israelis don't want their children to die. Any arguments about peace, justice, hypocrisy, or the miserable state of Palestinian children are going to be ineffective to the Israelis unless you can show the Israelis that your proposed peace initiative will bring security.

            The Israeli perspective is more relevant because they hold all of the cards now. You don't go into a negotiation unless you have something to gain from it. The Israelis want security and normalcy and the Palestinians want their own state.  This seems like a fair trade to me, can we make it happen?

            The key question from Israel's perspective, is why they should trust people like this as their armed next door neighbors. Obviously, from a perspective of israeli rational self-interest, they shouldn't, which explains why the peace process has gone nowhere for the past half-century.  

            •  asdf (2+ / 0-)

              "The Palestinians will continue to be powerless and the Israelis will continue to be armed to the teeth, both for the same reason:  The Israelis don't want their children to die."

              Like I say, a Palestinian state would pose no threat to Israel. In fact an end to the occupation and a regional peace settlement would greatly improve Israel's security. Sadly Israel has chosen expansion over security for decades.

    •  People who aren't on the firing line (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nathan45

      always talk about conditions they think are extreme.

      These are primary debating points, and people here are just not sophisticated enough to understand.  All political pronouncements have to first pass the muster of internal politics before they can deal with international ramifications.  This is a clear sign that Israel is willing to live next to a free Palestinian state of some kind, which is more than we've seen in generations.

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