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  •  No tips for this weak-ass defense of the blood (17+ / 0-)

    in the streets yesterday.

    I'm on Twitter so if you'd like to follow my tweets, please do!

    by slinkerwink on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:08:34 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  perhaps he knew it was (9+ / 0-)

      indefensible and hoped we wouldn't raise that inconvenient point?

      (Sadly, in Kathmandu no longer.)

      by American in Kathmandu on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:12:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with the diarist. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lepanto, ProbStat, GeeBee, Goli Orod

        But you won't get much support at dailykos.  This site sides with the 10% Iranian minority who own a computer.  

        Most liberals appear to support continuing the 30+ year policy of the west trying to overthrow the Iranian government and put in a regime that is more to our liking.  In this respect I disagree with mainstream liberal/progressives here.  But I also disagreed with them when they sided with John Edwards early in the 2008 campaign.

        I wouldn't have voted for Ahmidinijad, but I would not be protesting the election results because I don't think the election was rigged because Ahmidinijad is a popular president in Iran, despite the west's claims otherwise.  

    •  This guy is a piece of trash (7+ / 0-)

      as is the criminal regime that he is continuing to defend.

      •  "Goli" is a woman's name. (6+ / 0-)

        And whether you like it or not, this is a perspective I have heard from people inside Iran. There is a wide range of opinions, but this is one of them. I don't agree with it, but it needs to be noted and understood.

        As I have stated numerous times, I think there was fraud in the election, but just because I think that does not mean that Mousavi won. That is the mystery I am trying to figure out--why did they feel the need to create this result? The reality is that we and the Western media do not really have the tools to determine it either.

        You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife and you may ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

        by FrankCornish on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:25:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here's the problem (13+ / 0-)

          This doesn't read like the perspective of a voter or an average citizen who supports the regime.  It reads like a professionally produced bit of propaganda.

          Furthermore it's simply not believable given what we have seen and read with our own eyes.  The regime holds the reigns of power and has the capacity to defend their actions and the validity of the election with evidence of its fairness...but they don't.  Instead they beat and shoot their own people in the streets for assembling in protest.  That's not the hallmark of a transparent process or a legitimate regime.  It's insulting to have this ridiculous astroturf garbage posted here.  

          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

          by Triscula on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:32:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Iran: A Twitter Revolution (0+ / 0-)

            Your comment only displays your narrow-mindedness and your inability to accept that there are 24 million Iranians and millions more non-Iranians around the globe who have a different view than your.  Sad!

            •  Not a problem (7+ / 0-)

              It's not at all difficult to imagine that there are significant numbers of people who supported the regime.  What's not believable is the election results (as has been explained repeatedly throughout these comments). What an amazingly ham-handed election rigging, by the way.  You know, you guys might have gotten away with it if you had cooked up some reasonable numbers.  Who's idea was it to give Ahmadinejad 63%?  Lol. Really overplayed his hand with that.

              I certainly hope you're not suggesting that 24 million Iranians believe that it's okay for the government to beat, shoot and terrorize their own people for having the temerity to challenge the results of a rigged election.  That's pretty insulting to the Iranian people, imo.

              "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

              by Triscula on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:46:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Iran: A Twitter Coup (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              GeeBee

              Oops, I meant a Twitter Coup.  Look, even I am brainwashed by your propaganda!

              •  ... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bronte17, capelza, csquared

                I was taking you seriously up till that point, but I gotta say, that comment sounds an awful lot like troll.

              •  Goli... (6+ / 0-)

                A friend of my daughter's went to visit her mother in Isfahan. She'd not seen her mother in twenty years. She and her husband are both American/Iranian citizens. Thier children were born in the US.

                She and her two children arrived in Isfahan a week before the election. Her husband elected to stay home (in the States) because he felt he needed to take care of the business they own.

                Since all hell broke loose in Isfahan, she has resorted to hiding in a closet, hiding from the goon squads.

                Amazingly, land line phone service comes and goes. In phone call to her husband (from the closet) a few days ago the monsters were banging loudly on the door of her mothers home, shouting "We know there are Americans in there~!" Why they did not break in and do whatever they were assigned to do is unknown.

                Yesterday, she made an attempt to take her children out for an ice cream. The streets seemed silent to  her, safe enough to take her children out in the fresh air.

                Suddenly, gunshots rang out. People began running for their lives. A man shouted to my daughter's friend, "GO home~! GO home~! Two blocks over they are breaking down doors~!". She was running carrying her children. The man was able to get her into a car and take her back to her mother's house.

                Frankly, I doubt she'll make it out alive. This is difficult at best to talk about.

                I'm willing to hear you out. Just know, given that I know a living person trapped in that madness, I will listen with a very careful ear.

            •  After the response from the Supreme (5+ / 0-)

              Leader (irony) and a lack of visibility into the electoral process the leadership put its own legitimacy on the line.  No veritable proof exists to prove an outright win nor an electoral loss.  the immediate rejection of doubt, put every word and every subsequent government transaction in doubt.  Add in respected ayatollahs and others casting doubt about it and you have a leadership crisis that resulted in bloodshed rather than counting ballots.  your premise is faulty because it assumes a correlation of the rural populace being solely Ahmadenijad's when he won in Mousavi's hometown.  hence, the uprising is all over Iran not just in Tehran where the density of population grabs the focus.  Sure, Ahmadinejad may have received 43% of the vote after it split four ways - but, the rules say a run off and the Supreme leader and Ahmadeijad made sure that was not the outcome by virtue of not putting the evidence in front of the Iranian voters.

              One thing for sure known around the world now is Iran's people are not as stupid as the leadership assumed they were nor as inactive.  Courageous people.  

              Every time history repeats itself, the price goes up...East Wing Rules

              by Pithy Cherub on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:55:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think an average (7+ / 0-)

            Iranian citizen would be posting on Daily Kos.

            I would not go near the diarist's position, but I have contemplated the possibility that our perspective is distorted. Ahmanidejad's reported base of rural and urban underclasses are not going to be the kind that twitter, do facebook etc.

            I agree that the process of handling the vote has been clumsy and perplexing.

            Now, I am not trying to be argumentative here and I am not saying that it is an equal event, but I do remember that our government killed some protesters at Kent State in the 70s.

            You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife and you may ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

            by FrankCornish on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:42:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, they did (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Wee Mama, capelza

              And it was an outrage.  We also had a crooked president.  Also an outrage.  I'm not sure what your point is.

              "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

              by Triscula on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:47:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  My point is (5+ / 0-)

                and I'm not saying this is the case at all, but what if we are wrong and the diarist is right? Protests would be civil disobedience which in many socities would be met with violence. Does that make Iran a bad society?

                I have seen other comments here that compare Khamenei and AHmadinejad to Hitler/Stalin don't you think that is a bit much. I fully realize there is oppression in Iran, but there is in Pakistan too, and since they are our "ally" they get a pass?

                I agree that the content of this diary is jarring, but that is because we have not seen much of it, and we are on the other side. If Iran is going to reach any sort of reasonable compromise the people who express sentiments like this will have to be part of it. The alternative is a bloody civil war with a very uncertain outcome.

                You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife and you may ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

                by FrankCornish on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:54:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  it doesn't make Iran (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  capelza, FrankCornish

                  a worse society than the States, clearly, but neither does that absolve it.

                •  The point is that Nixon won 2 terms. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  GeeBee

                  despite wishes of 'the young people'.  Its not unreasonable to say Ahmidinijad won over the other hand picked by the Ayatollah candidate.

                  •  But the US didn't have the percentage of young (6+ / 0-)

                    people that Iran has. Not remotely.  71% of Iran's population is under 30.

                    And Iran is not a backward country. It is NOT predominated by a rural population.  A huge majority of the population, 67%, live in urban areas.

                    And the comparison with the US really needs to stop. Two very separate and distinct cultures that you cannot accurately overlay without serious distortions.

                    <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                    by bronte17 on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:20:34 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I hear what you are saying (5+ / 0-)

                  And I worry over the possibility of civil war or violent clashes between different groups.  However, I have been heartened by some of the examples I have seen of supporters of the reform movement protecting injured police, attempting to talk to them and urge them to join the march, etc.  I worry over the 'bad apples' who never seem to understand the value of restraint, yes.  And they always are there in the crowd with any movement.  All I can do is watch and hope.

                  As for the diarist's point of view, I see no evidence to support it.  I already know that Ahmadinejad has supporters.  That's not news.  The diarist hasn't addressed any of the allegations of fraud and her justification for why the reform challengers lost in their own home towns was simply not believable.

                  With regard to other countries with repressive regimes, I always remain hopeful that they will either reform or be replaced (by the people) with something that better serves the people.  It's not unique to Iran.  I think most people in this community are generally supportive of people having civil rights and responsible, transparent government.  We want it here, we want it in Iran.  I think we all believe that when regimes serve the people and protect rights (rather than violating them) that our world becomes a fundamentally safer place for all of us.

                  These folks in Iran want to demonstrate against an election that they believe was a fraud.  For that they are beaten, killed, attacked in their homes, arrested at hospitals, gassed, and harrassed by religious police.  It's not hard for me to decide where my sympathies lie, and it's really got nothing to do with Mousavi, per se.  It's about the people's civil rights.

                  "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

                  by Triscula on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:15:25 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Just try this for a second, (5+ / 0-)

                    doesn't the fact that you see no evidence at all give you pause?

                    There have been reports in some European papers in addition to an article in Politico that address the very same points the diarist is bringing up.

                    Politico Article

                    Again, the ideas are out there, and they cannot just be discarded out of hand. I don't agree with this article, but I recognize it as part of the debate.

                    You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife and you may ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

                    by FrankCornish on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:28:00 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What? evidence is whoever shouts the loudest (0+ / 0-)

                      Don'tcha know that?

                      "doesn't the fact that you see no evidence at all give you pause?"

                      Even before WMD'S in Iraq way to many where easily convinced by whoever shoutest loudest and had the more powerful media forces at their disposal.

                      Evidence bedamned. That can wait till well after we dole out the punishment.

                      And if it proves we were wrong--well, we might apologize (but maybe not).

                  •  and this, Triscula... (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bronte17, capelza, Triscula, hpchicago

                    These folks in Iran want to demonstrate against an election that they believe was a fraud.  For that they are beaten, killed, attacked in their homes, arrested at hospitals, gassed, and harrassed by religious police.  It's not hard for me to decide where my sympathies lie, and it's really got nothing to do with Mousavi, per se.  It's about the people's civil rights.

                    is the bottom line for me. Thank you.

                •  Agree, I like to hear both sides then decide (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lepanto, Annalize5, FrankCornish

                  I never have believed in shouting down the one side and not giving them a chance to present their case.

                  Americans are big jump on the bandwagon types--and the PWTB know this and quite often use it to their advantage.

                  I believe it goes without saying that there is of course an agenda going on below the surface. The temptation is to much for some outside influences to stay out.

                  There are some groups and nations that have the media and the means, and would benefit by a destabalized Iran. Don't expecxt them to exercise much restraint--like sharks they are circling the blood in the water, watching for opportunities.

                  •  Iran's leadership destabilized themselves (0+ / 0-)

                    It's cheap and irresponsible to cast blame upon someone else for your own foibles and weakness of character.

                    I keep using Marshall's "quality of intent" quote, but it's so true.

                    For the current regime in power in Iran, the quality of their intent in that election was negative. It was predicated on a lie and was false.

                    And the people called them on it. Peacefully called them on it. And the regime responded with brutal violence.

                    <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                    by bronte17 on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 10:23:55 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You are cheap and ignorant to uninformed (0+ / 0-)

                      "And the people called them on it. Peacefully called them on it. And the regime responded with brutal violence."

                      let's talk some truth:

                      In the U.S. you would get arrested, beatened badly, and certainly thrown in jail for what some of demostrators are doing; trashing businesses, public and private property, attacking and inflicting injury on police,etc.

                      "For the current regime in power in Iran, the quality of their intent in that election was negative. It was predicated on a lie and was false."

                      That is shit talk as it is just an opinion without any evidence to verify it.

                      •  The truth is documented. There was no violence (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Triscula, csquared, hpchicago

                        until the Basij militia and Hizbollah brutally attacked people in the streets and in university dorms and in their homes.

                        The response to any vandalism was disproportionate to any offense that may have occurred. Young people are always denigrated as liars and thieves and rogues who have to be crushed and taught their place. The rise and fall of the people's voice across the land, Allah O Akbar, and their peaceful assembly does not deserve the brutal suppression that the world has seen.

                        Furthermore, there have been numerous reports from experts that the election results contain outliers and inaccuracies, at the very least. Purges have occurred (and death) to the people working internally who have knowledge of the system.

                        None of that represents a republic of the people's will. It's one of an autocratic repressive regime.

                        <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                        by bronte17 on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 10:46:59 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Lay off the name-calling of other Kossacks ... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...please. "cheap and ignorant" is unnecessary punctuation to the point you are trying to make.

                        Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.

                        by Meteor Blades on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 11:08:52 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Holocaust denier, Frank. (0+ / 0-)

              Holocaust Denier.

              This is their 'compassionate, honest" leader.

              Horseshit.


              We need to get back to bedrock American values like torture and secession. - Josh Marshall

              by AlyoshaKaramazov on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 10:57:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Where did I ever say any such thing? (0+ / 0-)

                I have always said that Ahmadinejad has legitimate domestic support for internal economic reasons. I have never defended Ahmadinejad's outrageous remarks and speeches.

                Furthermore, I never said I agreed with the diarist, I have only said that I have heard such arguments from other Iranians, and that is what some people think.

                You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife and you may ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

                by FrankCornish on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 03:27:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Iran: A Twitter Revolotion (0+ / 0-)

            Your comment perfectly illustrates what I argue in my post, a high brow and elitist attitude the majority of Iranians detest.  I happen to be an educated person, but I think this way because in addition to education, I also have compassion.

        •  I agree (6+ / 0-)

          that there are almost certainly a wide range of opinions (based on the minimal data I have) inside Iran.  And as much as I find this particular diary laughable that's why I didn't hit the hide button.

          I'm not at all sure Mousavi would be any better for the Iranians or the U.S. than Ahmadinijad - his history doesn't suggest robust reformer, and I have no idea who really won the election.  It seems pretty clear though that the results were fraudulent.

          I'm particularly taken by the diarists reference to Ahmadinijad as as "modest"  Sorry, not a word I would have chosen.

        •  But here's the thing... the policies of Khamenei (4+ / 0-)

          and Co have produced inflation and the revenues from the oil industry dropped last year.

          30% of the population are unemployed.

          That is nothing to brag about.

          The trickle-down to the rural voters and the mishandling of the economy of the entire nation is reminiscent of the conservative reactionaries wingnuts in this country.

          Furthermore, 67% of Iranians live in urban areas.

          It is unfortunate that some people have pitted one group of Iranians against another, when they all should work together for the best for everyone.

          <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

          by bronte17 on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:12:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Many of those poor are much more (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Wee Mama, capelza, Lepanto, Annalize5

            inclined to blame the economy on Billionaire elites like Rafsanjani than Ahmadinejad. Despite his power, Rafsanjani is one of the most hated men in Iran--I have repeatedly tried to get people to understand that.

            You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife and you may ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

            by FrankCornish on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:29:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Regardless of Rafsanjani and his corruptions (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Meteor Blades, hpchicago

              and the hate for him... he is not the figurehead. Moussavi ran for President.

              The point of contention in this entire incident is the egregious and repressive hand of the autocratic Khemenei and the tyrannical regime with which he has surrounded himself.

              The election was a farce and when people said so and asked that it be redone... the death squads came out and swept the streets, the universities and into the homes of the citizens.

              That is not representative of the will of the people.

              <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

              by bronte17 on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 10:02:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Point well taken. nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FrankCornish
      •  Disagreement and fierce disagreement ... (0+ / 0-)

        ...is a fine thing. I think the diarist is way off the mark in defending, as you say, a criminal regime. But "piece of trash" is an unnecessary addition.

        Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.

        by Meteor Blades on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 11:05:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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