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View Diary: Iran: A Twitter Coup (133 comments)

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  •  My point is (5+ / 0-)

    and I'm not saying this is the case at all, but what if we are wrong and the diarist is right? Protests would be civil disobedience which in many socities would be met with violence. Does that make Iran a bad society?

    I have seen other comments here that compare Khamenei and AHmadinejad to Hitler/Stalin don't you think that is a bit much. I fully realize there is oppression in Iran, but there is in Pakistan too, and since they are our "ally" they get a pass?

    I agree that the content of this diary is jarring, but that is because we have not seen much of it, and we are on the other side. If Iran is going to reach any sort of reasonable compromise the people who express sentiments like this will have to be part of it. The alternative is a bloody civil war with a very uncertain outcome.

    You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife and you may ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

    by FrankCornish on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:54:23 AM PDT

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    •  it doesn't make Iran (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      capelza, FrankCornish

      a worse society than the States, clearly, but neither does that absolve it.

    •  The point is that Nixon won 2 terms. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GeeBee

      despite wishes of 'the young people'.  Its not unreasonable to say Ahmidinijad won over the other hand picked by the Ayatollah candidate.

      •  But the US didn't have the percentage of young (6+ / 0-)

        people that Iran has. Not remotely.  71% of Iran's population is under 30.

        And Iran is not a backward country. It is NOT predominated by a rural population.  A huge majority of the population, 67%, live in urban areas.

        And the comparison with the US really needs to stop. Two very separate and distinct cultures that you cannot accurately overlay without serious distortions.

        <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

        by bronte17 on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:20:34 AM PDT

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    •  I hear what you are saying (5+ / 0-)

      And I worry over the possibility of civil war or violent clashes between different groups.  However, I have been heartened by some of the examples I have seen of supporters of the reform movement protecting injured police, attempting to talk to them and urge them to join the march, etc.  I worry over the 'bad apples' who never seem to understand the value of restraint, yes.  And they always are there in the crowd with any movement.  All I can do is watch and hope.

      As for the diarist's point of view, I see no evidence to support it.  I already know that Ahmadinejad has supporters.  That's not news.  The diarist hasn't addressed any of the allegations of fraud and her justification for why the reform challengers lost in their own home towns was simply not believable.

      With regard to other countries with repressive regimes, I always remain hopeful that they will either reform or be replaced (by the people) with something that better serves the people.  It's not unique to Iran.  I think most people in this community are generally supportive of people having civil rights and responsible, transparent government.  We want it here, we want it in Iran.  I think we all believe that when regimes serve the people and protect rights (rather than violating them) that our world becomes a fundamentally safer place for all of us.

      These folks in Iran want to demonstrate against an election that they believe was a fraud.  For that they are beaten, killed, attacked in their homes, arrested at hospitals, gassed, and harrassed by religious police.  It's not hard for me to decide where my sympathies lie, and it's really got nothing to do with Mousavi, per se.  It's about the people's civil rights.

      "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

      by Triscula on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:15:25 AM PDT

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      •  Just try this for a second, (5+ / 0-)

        doesn't the fact that you see no evidence at all give you pause?

        There have been reports in some European papers in addition to an article in Politico that address the very same points the diarist is bringing up.

        Politico Article

        Again, the ideas are out there, and they cannot just be discarded out of hand. I don't agree with this article, but I recognize it as part of the debate.

        You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife and you may ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

        by FrankCornish on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:28:00 AM PDT

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        •  What? evidence is whoever shouts the loudest (0+ / 0-)

          Don'tcha know that?

          "doesn't the fact that you see no evidence at all give you pause?"

          Even before WMD'S in Iraq way to many where easily convinced by whoever shoutest loudest and had the more powerful media forces at their disposal.

          Evidence bedamned. That can wait till well after we dole out the punishment.

          And if it proves we were wrong--well, we might apologize (but maybe not).

      •  and this, Triscula... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bronte17, capelza, Triscula, hpchicago

        These folks in Iran want to demonstrate against an election that they believe was a fraud.  For that they are beaten, killed, attacked in their homes, arrested at hospitals, gassed, and harrassed by religious police.  It's not hard for me to decide where my sympathies lie, and it's really got nothing to do with Mousavi, per se.  It's about the people's civil rights.

        is the bottom line for me. Thank you.

    •  Agree, I like to hear both sides then decide (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lepanto, Annalize5, FrankCornish

      I never have believed in shouting down the one side and not giving them a chance to present their case.

      Americans are big jump on the bandwagon types--and the PWTB know this and quite often use it to their advantage.

      I believe it goes without saying that there is of course an agenda going on below the surface. The temptation is to much for some outside influences to stay out.

      There are some groups and nations that have the media and the means, and would benefit by a destabalized Iran. Don't expecxt them to exercise much restraint--like sharks they are circling the blood in the water, watching for opportunities.

      •  Iran's leadership destabilized themselves (0+ / 0-)

        It's cheap and irresponsible to cast blame upon someone else for your own foibles and weakness of character.

        I keep using Marshall's "quality of intent" quote, but it's so true.

        For the current regime in power in Iran, the quality of their intent in that election was negative. It was predicated on a lie and was false.

        And the people called them on it. Peacefully called them on it. And the regime responded with brutal violence.

        <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

        by bronte17 on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 10:23:55 AM PDT

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        •  You are cheap and ignorant to uninformed (0+ / 0-)

          "And the people called them on it. Peacefully called them on it. And the regime responded with brutal violence."

          let's talk some truth:

          In the U.S. you would get arrested, beatened badly, and certainly thrown in jail for what some of demostrators are doing; trashing businesses, public and private property, attacking and inflicting injury on police,etc.

          "For the current regime in power in Iran, the quality of their intent in that election was negative. It was predicated on a lie and was false."

          That is shit talk as it is just an opinion without any evidence to verify it.

          •  The truth is documented. There was no violence (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Triscula, csquared, hpchicago

            until the Basij militia and Hizbollah brutally attacked people in the streets and in university dorms and in their homes.

            The response to any vandalism was disproportionate to any offense that may have occurred. Young people are always denigrated as liars and thieves and rogues who have to be crushed and taught their place. The rise and fall of the people's voice across the land, Allah O Akbar, and their peaceful assembly does not deserve the brutal suppression that the world has seen.

            Furthermore, there have been numerous reports from experts that the election results contain outliers and inaccuracies, at the very least. Purges have occurred (and death) to the people working internally who have knowledge of the system.

            None of that represents a republic of the people's will. It's one of an autocratic repressive regime.

            <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

            by bronte17 on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 10:46:59 AM PDT

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          •  Lay off the name-calling of other Kossacks ... (0+ / 0-)

            ...please. "cheap and ignorant" is unnecessary punctuation to the point you are trying to make.

            Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.

            by Meteor Blades on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 11:08:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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