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View Diary: We're More Like Iran Than We Like To Admit (136 comments)

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    •  Oh Please, This is Profane (25+ / 0-)

      People are being shot in the streets for protesting a coup that's reinforcing a theocracy.  Whatever police abuses happen in the US--and I've been attacked on picket lines by paramilitaries, so you don't have to lecture me about violence against people in the US engaging in legal protests--since the 19th century they've seldom been a fraction as repressive as what's happening in Iran.  Furthermore, in the US there hasn't been any type of nationwide protest against official rule like what's happening in Iran since probably (to scale) the American revolution (or, depending on how you define things, the Civil War).

      Doing moral, ethical and political equivalencies is often a dicey endeavor.  This ridiculous comparison shows why.  

      "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

      by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 05:37:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Dana, I hate to agree with you (14+ / 0-)

        but we have never had snipers shoot young women from rooftops. We have never had government religious thugs/militias drag people off in the night from their bedrooms. The Basij is like a government sponsored KKK.

        The diarist's claims are disrespectful to the Iranian people who have shown great courage in the face of state sponsored domestic terrorists.

        "It's the planet, stupid."

        by FishOutofWater on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 05:42:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  At the risk of being called a troll (6+ / 0-)

          I would hazard a guess that the great majority of instances of police violence since the end of the civil rights movement and the Vietnam War, in the early 70's, have occurred when protesters have themselves violated the law.  For example, if protesters throw rocks through store windows, that is a crime for which the police should arrest the rock throwers, and resisting arrest is also a crime.

          I worked with policemen and policewomen when I was a deputy DA, and except for a few bad apples, whom we got removed from the police force, they were dedicated public servants, risking their lives daily, who wanted to follow the law and to respect individual rights.  They would much rather watch a demonstration and direct traffic than to start a confrontation.

          "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

          by Navy Vet Terp on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 05:53:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  This Diary Is Also an Example... (19+ / 0-)

        ...of something I hate about elements of the US Left, where they inflate the problems in the US, often so they can inflate their sense of persecution and/or courage.  Really, this is ridiculous, and you should be ashamed.  I've gone to plenty of protests over the years, including against the first Gulf War, which was a heck of a lot more popular at the time than the invasion of Iraq was in 2003, and I never once felt in danger.  Inflating going to a WTO protest in Seattle--which, btw, was completely peaceful, and totally separate from the vandalism wilding perpetrated by a bunch of asshole anarchists that happened several blocks away from the main protest--is stoopid.

        You should be ashamed for equating going to a rally in the US vs standing down the repressive military, Basiji and potentially the Revolutionary Guard in Iran.  

        Grow up.  

        "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

        by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 05:44:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The last time anything even close to this (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FuzzyDice

          happened in the U.S. was in 1968 in Chicago and in 1970 on the campus of Kent State but the scale is not even close to what is happening in Iran.  

          Americans don't care enough about their democracy to take to the streets to protect it.  We have a 60% voting rate.  The only circumstance I could envision Americans taking to the streets would involve someone trying to outlaw guns and then our right wing whacko's would burn down everything in sight.

          Americans die over the right to vote, they can't even be bothered to miss American Idol over it.

        •  The way the police behaved in NYC (8+ / 0-)

          in the run up to the Iraq war was horrible.  They caged the protesters--you couldn't leave it if you wanted to and I almost got trampled by horses.  The RNC protests were even worse and people got arrested for just being on the "wrong" street at the wrong time.

          However.

          I would never ever compare that to what is going on in Iran.  For one thing, the cops didn't go around maurading, beating people, smashing windows, invading homes, vandalizing property or shooting people for the hell of it.  

          And once people got arrested, they were out within a couple of days and were not beaten (usually!) and had access to lawyers and relatively decent courts.  And Oh yeah, they weren't tortured and put on TV with fabricated "confessions."

          I could go on for quite a bit longer but I won't.

          •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            timewarp, MnplsLiberal

            Some people are equating crappy behavior by police anywhere at any time in the US with what's going on in Iran.  One need not deny abuses in the US to say that it's nothing like what's happening in Iran.  

            "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

            by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:24:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I never said we were the same. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Thomas C, shirah, esquimaux

        Yes, the Iranian authorities have killed more protestors so far.

        But WE are the ones who claim to believe in liberty.

        •  Bullshit (7+ / 0-)

          You're putting two things next to each other, and insinuating equivalence.  There's no equivalence that doesn't render any comparisons meaningless.

          This is an affront to the courage and widespread hunger for greater liberty and hatred of real repression by the people protesting in Iran.  

          This is as stupid as Congressman Pete Hoekstra comparing what's going on in Iran to how the Democrats run parliamentary procedure in the House of Representatives.  

          "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

          by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 05:48:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No it is not. (11+ / 0-)

            The issue is that we need to do some house cleaning and soul searching of our own.

            No, they are not equivalent, but right now, on the world stage, the US giving lectures on human rights sounds a bit strange to almost anyone but Americans.

            You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife and you may ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

            by FrankCornish on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 05:52:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's Bullshit (4+ / 0-)

              Local police out of control over a nationally repressive government where the military and national forces are deployed against widespread protests.

              Stupid false equivalence.  

              And the examples are ridiculous.  A single journalist getting arrested and held for, what, an hour or so?  Anarchists who had nothing to do with the protests in Seattle going on an orgy of destruction?  

              Stupid diary all around.  

              "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

              by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 05:57:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You shouldn't hold back, you know. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                timewarp, amk for obama, polar bear

                It's totally bad for you.

              •  Kent State? (5+ / 0-)

                I'll include the link like its even needed

                http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                National guard firing on peaceful anti-war protesters.

                "We were warriors then, and our tribe was strong like a river" - Hunter S Thompson

                by GonzoLegend on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:13:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Can you give us an example, say, during the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Actuary4Change

                  lifetime of the Islamic Republic of Iran?

                  "i find the resemblace of DemocraticLuntz and Arken to Disney style yapping jackals to be astoundingly accurate"

                  by DemocraticLuntz on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:15:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah, a Couple Thousand People in One Place (0+ / 0-)

                  Did the federal government order that?  And was it happening with, say, 10% of the national population all at the same time?  

                  "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                  by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:19:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well Nixon wasn't to fond of the Anti-War protest (3+ / 0-)

                    I'm from Europe dunno if the federal government orders the National guard. I'm also for people power worldwide so support the Iran protesters 150% I find it funny you Americans seem to lecture everyone about how you guys want things to be an ignore them yourself.

                    Obama was calling the dictatorship of Egypt an important ally 2 weeks ago.

                    Oh wait America wants to start lecturing people again on human rights? I'm sorry Dana ain't it you're troops that kidnap, strip, torture and possibly rape prisoners?

                    But hey you're right America ain't like Iran. Iranians protest stolen elections.

                    "We were warriors then, and our tribe was strong like a river" - Hunter S Thompson

                    by GonzoLegend on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:27:00 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Whatever (5+ / 1-)
                      Recommended by:
                      leftynyc, DemocraticLuntz, timewarp, Troubadour, jumpjet
                      Hidden by:
                      Thomas C

                      The US is evil.  Europe is perfect.  Thanks for that.

                      "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                      by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:28:30 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Sorry I forgot (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        esquimaux

                        Support Troops. Support the trained killers not matter what because they killing brown skinned people for really GOOD reasons. They noble to I'm sure. Thought this was a site set up to protest the Iraq War?

                        Correct me if anything I say been wrong.

                         

                        "We were warriors then, and our tribe was strong like a river" - Hunter S Thompson

                        by GonzoLegend on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:46:23 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Shouldn't you be out protesting the burgeoning (4+ / 0-)

                          European neo-fascist movement?

                          "i find the resemblace of DemocraticLuntz and Arken to Disney style yapping jackals to be astoundingly accurate"

                          by DemocraticLuntz on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:48:23 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Yes, Exactly My Positions (0+ / 0-)

                          Just like you're European, so you therefore support pogroms against Jews, religious wars, keeping all Muslims in fetid suburbs, and colonialism.  

                          "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                          by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:50:08 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Didn't and wouldn't happen on my watch (0+ / 0-)

                            Our left learns from Jean Paul Sartre and Frantz Fannol. They might teach you people on the left in the US something.

                            As for the neo-fascist movements they smaller in the EU than you're gun nut/religious right militants.

                            I'm waiting for America to grow a pair and really embrace you're ideals. I support The Daily Kos and support more radical left wing movements. But till you deal with you're own demons maybe stop lecturing the world on how you want them to act.

                            PS: Thanks for fucking up all our economies.  

                            "We were warriors then, and our tribe was strong like a river" - Hunter S Thompson

                            by GonzoLegend on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 07:11:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "On My Watch" (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DemocraticLuntz

                            Jeez, you are insufferable.  

                            "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                            by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 07:19:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well you bought up the concentration camps (0+ / 0-)

                            To a 24 year old as a way to bash Europe. I learned about the holocaust in history books in school. You're generation actively stood by while Bush seized power, went to war, gutted the economy.

                            Why should you comment on how the Iranians protest? Please tell me I honestly want to know.

                            "We were warriors then, and our tribe was strong like a river" - Hunter S Thompson

                            by GonzoLegend on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 07:28:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Shocking That You Don't Know... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...the difference between a pogrom and the Holocaust.

                            Nah, actually really not shocking at all.  

                            Thank you for demonstrating your ignorance on almost everything you've written on tonight.  You've helped reinforce my points.

                            Good night.  

                            "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

                            by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 07:34:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Prime example of this American pettiness (0+ / 0-)

                            It was obvious what you were bringing up when you were talking about the "Jewish pogroms in Europe".

                            The rise of Nazi Germany, Warsaw Ghetto's, People forced to wear the Star of David and finally Kristallnact and The Holocaust.

                            That is what any right thinking person would know and if you asked most historians of course they would hold the Jewish pogroms AS CONNECTED to the Holocaust.

                            Tens of thousands of Jews were killed under the Nazi pogroms in Germany, Romania and Poland. You don't consider that to be part of the Holocaust?

                            But of course in all of that you didn't answer my honest question. Now I don't even want to hear it. You're a tool Dana and you should know that everything I said about American killers torturing, Americans not standing up to stolen elections, and Americans not having a right to tell other people how they should do things till they sort out there mess in there country are true.

                            So good luck Dana hope you're President doesn't disappoint you. And know that the rest of the world doesn't follow that Support the troops bullshit. They killers. They get killed hey, live by the sword die by the sword. I support resistance groups not occupying forces.  

                            "We were warriors then, and our tribe was strong like a river" - Hunter S Thompson

                            by GonzoLegend on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 07:59:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Dana's descended into mindless... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...jingoistic, ahistorical American exceptionalism.

                        The diarist is absolutely correct in noting that our government continues to violently suppress peaceful protests, although he never suggested any equivalence in terms of scale or brutality.

                    •  Hey, asshole - Daily Kos is an American blog. (2+ / 1-)
                      Recommended by:
                      DemocraticLuntz, Chris Hawthorne
                      Hidden by:
                      Thomas C

                      We welcome outside participation, but kindly remove the stick from your ass when you're in our house.

                      "Water can flow, or it can crash. Be water, my friend." -Bruce Lee

                      by Troubadour on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:34:00 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  You are seriously misreading the diary (0+ / 0-)

            and thus ignoring the most important points - we think we have the information we need to be a democracy - and yet we have been deprived of information about important events here - about large protests, protests that involved violent use of the police forces.

            This is information people need to have.

            Calm down and re-read the diary fairly.

            •  Didn't Misread It (0+ / 0-)

              And obviously dozens of others read it the same way I did.  And if you look at the comments, the diarist reinforced a different point than what you're claiming he made.  

              "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

              by Dana Houle on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 11:19:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  If you don't consider the civil rights movement (8+ / 0-)

        legal.  The state sponsored violence against blacks, remember?  

        "Peace cannot be achieved by force. It can only be achieved by understanding" Albert Einstein

        by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:10:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Localized Incidents Over Decades (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          timewarp, MnplsLiberal

          There wasn't really a single moment where you had a widespread uprising.  And in the South, it was typically a fairly small minority that participated in the events that elicited confrontations, because the danger was so great, and even in a place like Louisiana or South Carolina, Blacks were a minority, less than a third of the population.  

          Even with the Selma to Montgomery marches, that was probably under a thousand marchers.  It was a different type of protest movement, one where there was little chance of people in that region overturning the power relationships.  It probably required the courage of the SNCC people, yes, and I take absolutely nothing from them, but that was local powers suppressing a local population until federal authorities finally intervened.  

          This is different that a majority or a sizable minority is resisting the national government, and the national government is using the power of the state to try to suppress the uprising.

          In this analogy, it would be more like the white segregationists in the South who resisted federal control, weak though it was, in the South.  And it was federal power that finally, tepidly, was exerted on behalf of Blacks in the South.

          "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

          by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:18:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  So (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        esquimaux

        What would be the response in the U.S. if there was a large-scale assault on political powers in the U.S.?

        You think they would just sit back and accept it?

        You can't even get a non-corporate greedy bastard on Sunday TV. You think our leading class would allow for actual health care, sane worker's salaries, and a democracy based on providing for the health and wealth being of the average American?

        •  I Neither Understand Your Point... (0+ / 0-)

          ...not understand what it has to do with the discussion.  

          "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

          by Dana Houle on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 07:09:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  really? (0+ / 0-)

            Furthermore, in the US there hasn't been any type of nationwide protest against official rule

            You state you don't even know what would happen.

            I ask what what happen. What would happen if people actually realized that both Dems and Reps are corporate assholes that Exxon and Pharms and Insurance buy.

            What would happen?

            Given that people in the US don't have a clue how much control corporations have, what would happen if the people in America actually demanded working wages, health care. A government that worked for them and not some bank's bottom line.

            You pretend to be dense.

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