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View Diary: Gilad Shalit to be released.  A gesture leading to peace? (170 comments)

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  •  over 10,000 Palestinian prisoners should be (10+ / 0-)

    released to their families.
    It would also help if there were an end to state-sanctioned torture of Palestinian prisoners.

    that would be a gesture toward peace too.

    "The sword of murder is not the balance of justice." Mom's Day Statement

    by Tom J on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:07:04 AM PDT

    •  Let's hope we get to that point. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      deaniac20, Shane Hensinger

      But even you have to admit this is a great development.

      "Ambrose...Just stop it now ! Your intellect is just to overpowering and opressive for us average bloggers"

      by AmbroseBurnside on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:09:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  LOL Tom way to completely try (12+ / 0-)

      to negate anything that this release does.

      My god - do you have any idea how politics in the real world happen.

      Stop with hyperbole for one day. Try to move forward. Do you think you can do that?

      "In any event, you certainly are a total asshole." Timaeus

      by volleyboy1 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:09:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

        •  If you can't see it... (6+ / 0-)

          Not going there today. This is too big and Thomas C is dead on about keeping cool.

          "In any event, you certainly are a total asshole." Timaeus

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:26:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I can't see (3+ / 0-)

            the hyperbole in Tom's comment. There are thousands of Palestinian prisoners being held by Israel, many of them are subjected to state sanctioned torture, and they should be released. That's what Tom said and, as far as I can see, he's right.

            If you can't respond without losing your cool, then you're perfectly entitled not to.

            •  I cannot respond to that comment without (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JNEREBEL, Karmafish, oldskooldem

              losing my cool. So.... out of respect for the thread and in celebration for what this release means to me - I will simply say - Let us all be happy for Gilad's release (hopefully) AND let us be thankful that there are people talking peace over there.

              "In any event, you certainly are a total asshole." Timaeus

              by volleyboy1 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:36:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  False. All torture (by any name) outlawed by (7+ / 0-)

              Israel's high court in the 90s. I am sick and tired of this lie.

              It is certainly better than we have done.

              We are in a time where it is risky NOT to change. Barack Obama 7-30-08

              by samddobermann on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 01:34:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It has been thoroughly documented (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JesseCW

                by multiple human rights organisations, and Israeli officials have admitted to it. The (flawed) High Court ruling of 1999 did put an end to Israel's status the only country in the world to have legalised torture, but it did not put an end to the practice. As you'd know if you'd bothered to spend 10 minutes researching before you made your comment.

                •  these "human rights organizations," (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CN, Karmafish, Borat Sagdiyev

                  which barely touch other countries have a clear overt agenda. Read what happens when someone actually questions them. And don't give me "its Alan Dershowitz" because no one proved his story false, and Norman Finkelstein's claims of plaigiarism were proven false, to the point where his publisher had to erase it in his pathetic book.

                  Groups like AI and HRW have lost all credibility on the I/P conflict.

                  "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

                  by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 02:15:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  They don't (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Terra Mystica

                    "barely touch" other countries; Finkelstein's accusations against Alan Dershowitz (the overt racist and apologist for, among other things, torture) have in fact been proven correct; and Finkelstein's claims, along with extensive documentation of said claims, remain in the book, which despite branding it "pathetic" you plainly haven't read.

                    As for whether you and Dershowitz have as much credibility on the subject of Israeli torture as multiple human rights organisations, including highly conservative ones like Human Rights Watch, I'll leave that to readers to decide.

                    •  so proven true (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      CN, volleyboy1

                      that Dershowitz still is a professor at Harvard. Finkelstein, on the other hand has been fired from at least 6 colleges.

                      I'll take a real professor like Dershowitz over "academic" nomad Finkelstein.

                      "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

                      by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 03:38:49 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Alan "The case for Torture" Dershowitz (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        heathlander

                        You're no neo-con.  Nuh-uh.

                        Crush the Horror.

                        by JesseCW on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 04:14:36 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  actually, consider that (0+ / 0-)

                          in the debate over whether harsh interrogations are sometimes necessary, the "no" side was losing. I'm not prepared to dub a majority of Americans who said it is sometimes necessary if the ticking bomb scenario, "neo-cons."

                          "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

                          by deaniac20 on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 08:58:21 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  he's buying into the same AI lies (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CN, Karmafish, Borat Sagdiyev

                which basically rely on heavily biased sources, and who don't give try to compare what happens in the Territories to other countries in the region. You can read about AI's little games which Alan Dershowitz has exposed:

                On August 23, 2005, I spoke with Donatella Rovera, who is AI’s researcher on Israel and the Occupied Territories and asked her to provide the data on which she had based her conclusion that violence against women had escalated to an "unprecedented level" during the occupation, and especially during its most militarized phase. I also asked her whether AI had compared violence against women in the occupied West Bank and Gaza with violence against women in unoccupied Arab-Muslim areas that have comparable populations, such as Jordan. Rovera acknowledged that AI could provide no such comparative data and confirmed that the report was based on anecdotal information, primarily from Palestinian NGOs. "We talk to anyone who would talk to us," she said. When I asked her for a list of the NGO’s that were the sources of the information, she refused to provide them because "there are things we can simply not provide to outsiders." I assured her that I was not interested in names or identifying features, but only in statistical data regarding the alleged trends cited in the report, but she still refused to provide anything more than a recommendation that we Google "pretty much all the NGOs" in the region. It is impossible under these circumstances for any outside researcher to replicate AI’s study and to confirm or disconfirm its conclusions.

                This proves that one cannot trust the "human rights groups" which report on Israel. They're overt bias is what feeds people like heathlander.

                "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

                by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 02:13:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Wouldn't be the first time Israel's Supreme Court (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zannie, heathlander, JesseCW

                was ignored. The Israel's Supreme Court ruled that much of the land the settlements are built legally on land that belonged to individual Palestinians.

                In the time since the ruling none of that land has been returned to its rightful owners.

                Insurance, Oil, Bank, and Defense corporations all have a substantial equity positions in what's supposed to be our Congress.

                by Lefty Coaster on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 04:28:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Is that the equivalent of one Israeli soldier? (9+ / 0-)

      10,000 Palestinian prisoners are the equivalent worth of 1 Israeli soldier?

      Disgusting. Can you just for one minute allow people to rejoice in the release of this man instead of coming in with a comment like that?

      The Shane Life - Chock full o' juicy Shane-bits!

      by Shane Hensinger on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:10:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Let's try not responding today... (7+ / 0-)

        ...to things that may be intentionally or inadvertently provocative.

        •  Thomas (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Karmafish, deaniac20, leftynyc

          Again I am impressed - I misjudged you before from other posts - I apologize. Thanks for your efforts.

          "In any event, you certainly are a total asshole." Timaeus

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:25:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  despite your HR on some of my (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Karmafish, Borat Sagdiyev

          posts and even tip jars, still, good effort to keep it civil. Unfortunately, some here don't know how to do that. Even I have refrained here, except when responding to people like Tom J. We can rest assure when there is a Palestinian state and Israel-Palestine peace treaty, that some will actually be AGAINST the peace treaty.

          "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

          by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 02:21:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  let's talk percentages (5+ / 0-)

        100% of all Israelis being held prisoner for 100% of each Palestinian being unjustly held by the Occupation Forces.

        then let's talk number of homes that will be demolished this week by the Israeli army vs. the number of homes that will be demolished by the Palestinian army.... let's tell the Palestinians to not demolish one Israeli home if the Israeli government agrees to not demolish one Palestinian home.

        let's talk olive trees. the palestinians agree not to uproot one olive tree in Israel if the Israelis agree to not uproot one olive tree in the West Bank....

        mmm, this could be interesting.

        "The sword of murder is not the balance of justice." Mom's Day Statement

        by Tom J on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:41:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Shut up Tom (5+ / 0-)

          Really - please. Just leave this diary alone.

          The Shane Life - Chock full o' juicy Shane-bits!

          by Shane Hensinger on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:44:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  yeah, Tom, really (4+ / 0-)

          leave them to their hypocrisy in peace. So impolite.

          •  Have some gumbo (5+ / 0-)

            Photobucket

            in honor of the city of New Orleans and its honorary citizen, Gilad Shalit.

            If the kid is released Jews around the world will celebrate.

            You need not join us.

            Cheers!

            "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

            by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:03:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  YUM YUM YUM (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Karmafish

              And a cool gesture on the part of New Orleans.

              "In any event, you certainly are a total asshole." Timaeus

              by volleyboy1 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:04:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's all about the roux. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                volleyboy1

                A deep, rich, dark roux is the key.

                The trick is to get it as dark as possible without burning it.

                Shit.  Now I'm making myself hungry.

                A toast!

                To the good people of New Orleans and to the release of Gilad Shalit!

                "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:08:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  How nice of New Orleans (5+ / 0-)

              I'm sure its gesture will be appreciated by Mohammed Khawajah, aged 12, who

              'was arrested by Israeli soldiers at his home in Ni’lin village at 3am on 11 September [2008]. He was beaten and detained with adults in an army detention camp until 15 September, when he was released on bail. He was charged with throwing stones at soldiers and sent for trial before a military court.'

              I'm sure Salwa Salah and Sara Siureh, two 16-year-old girls who were taken from their homes at night in June and were still held being in administrative detention, i.e. without charge or trial, at the end of 2008, will similarly be thankful, as will the thousands of other prisoners being held unlawfully by Israel, many of them subjected to brutal torture.

              Everyone reading this will know about Gilad Shalit's plight. They will have seen his picture and heard his parents' moving pleas for justice. Almost no one will have heard of Mohammed Khawajah, Salwa Salah and Sara Siureh, let alone seen their pictures or the suffering of their families, and we should all ask ourselves why.

              •  Please list all of the countries (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CN, dufffbeer, Karmafish, deaniac20, volleyboy1

                you know of where throwing stones at soldiers is a legal activity.  I'm happy to consider the argument that Mr. Khawajah was illegally imprisoned.  And it appears that while you'd prefer he be in a criminal trial instead of a military trial, he did, in fact, receive a trial.

                Did Gilat Shalit receive a trial?  Could Amnesty International even check up on Gilat Shalit?  The answer is "no" to both questions.

                "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                by oldskooldem on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:18:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  He was beaten, (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lefty Coaster, jimbobb

                  given an unfair trial and then illegally detained in Israel, and you're defending it on the grounds that he threw some stones at soldiers in an occupying army? Impressive.

                  You're well aware of the point I'm making. Israel routinely kidnaps Palestinian civilians, detains them in violation of international law and tortures them on a systematic basis. For us, as citizens of countries that support and facilitate these crimes, to completely ignore their consequences and their victims while championing the fate of a captured Israeli soldier is disgustingly hypocritical at best, downright racist at worst.

                  •  Umm.. are we reading the same link? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    deaniac20, volleyboy1

                    He was released on bail and there's nothing that says his trial was unfair--just that it was in front of military courts instead of criminal courts.  Which makes sense to me, as he attacked the military with his projectiles, not an ordinary citizen.

                    If you have more links on Mr. Khawajah, please provide.  The study you provided just doesn't support your accusation.

                    Where is Gilad Shalit's bail?  Where is his trial?

                    "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                    by oldskooldem on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:30:46 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Lefty Coaster, Terra Mystica

                      "was arrested by Israeli soldiers at his home in Ni’lin village at 3am on 11 September [2008]. He was beaten and detained with adults in an army detention camp until 15 September, when he was released on bail. He was charged with throwing stones at soldiers and sent for trial before a military court.'"

                      The bit about him being detained might be wrong, I got him confused with someone else. Either way, you're deliberately missing the point: as Amnesty International, B'Tselem and many others have documented, thousands of Palestinians are being illegally detained by Israel, many of them without charge or trial and many of them subjected to torture.

                      People who bear responsibility for these crimes are totally ignoring them and instead focusing the plight of a single captured Israeli soldier, who alone has recieved more media attention than thousands of Palestinian detainees combined. That almost everyone has heard of Gilad Shalit while Salwa Salah, Sarah Siureh and thousands of others are totally unknown is a disgrace, and everyone who gives a damn about our responsibilities in this conflict should work to rectify it.

                      •  Look (4+ / 0-)

                        I'm not generally in favor of 12 year olds being detained with adults, and I have no idea what the circumstances around his beating were...

                        But the reason why the plight of Gilad Shalit is being followed by the Jewish people is exactly because we have focused on a single person who is so emblematic with what is wrong with Hamas and terrorism.  He was kidnapped and hasn't been convicted of a crime.  He's of ill health and the Red Cross isn't being allowed to see him (which, I might add, is highly unusual).

                        I'd encourage you to pick a cause celebre who is innocent of crime, has been detained for three years, and who the Red Cross cannot see.  It will make a much more sympathetic case than talking generically about thousands of prisoners, many of which do likely have blood on their hands.

                        "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                        by oldskooldem on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:43:30 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Lefty Coaster, Terra Mystica

                          "But the reason why the plight of Gilad Shalit is being followed by the Jewish people"

                          This has nothing to do with "the Jewish people", and I'd prefer it if you didn't make generalisations. Some Jewish people have been very courageous in standing up for the rights of Palestinians detained and tortured by Israel.

                          This is about our responsibily to give a shit about the victims of crimes for which we bear no small responsibility, or at least not to display the flagrant hypocrisy necessary to devote more attention to one soldier captured by Palestinians than to all the civilias kidnapped by Israel combined.

                          "...and I have no idea what the circumstances around his beating were..."

                          Or indeed about the circumstances surrounding any of the Palestinians being detained (and in many cases tortured) illegally by Israel. Which rather says it all.

                          "He was kidnapped and hasn't been convicted of a crime."

                          You can't "kidnap" a soldier, you can capture him/her, and whatever you think about the capture of a soldier it plainly doesn't compare to the kidnapping of thousands of civilians, many of them tortured.

                          "I'd encourage you to pick a cause celebre who is innocent of crime, has been detained for three years, and who the Red Cross cannot see."

                          You don't need to "encourage" me to do anything. You, like all of us, need to take a look at your own responsibilities here and ask whether you've acted like a principled defender of human rights or an unprincipled hypocrite.

                          •  "This" (4+ / 0-)

                            is Gilad Shalit.. which is the subject of this diary despite your hijacking to make something else the subject of this diary--Gilad Shalit.

                            And the plight of Gilad Shalit is being covered in every synagogue in America.  Hence my reference to the Jewish people.  As for all your other issues, I'm glad you have finally admitted to being an unprincipled hypocrite.  It makes discussion of the issue in this diary--that is, Gilad Shalit, so much easier.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 01:50:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  lets also look at AI's shoddy (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          oldskooldem

                          attempts to verify or cover Israel/Palestinians fairly. I take everything AI and HRW say about Israel with a grain of salt.

                          "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

                          by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 02:22:39 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  ill health not convicted.. (0+ / 0-)

                          you ask

                          la times

                          The release of Dr. Aziz Dweik, speaker of the Palestinian Authority parliament, fed speculation that Israel was on the verge of a deal to secure the return of a captured soldier in exchange for hundreds of Hamas prisoners. Such a swap has been the aim of sporadic negotiations mediated by Egypt, but Israeli and Hamas officials said they had no information about a breakthrough.

                          Israel arrested dozens of mayors, legislators and other elected officials from Hamas in the West Bank following the capture of the soldier, Gilad Shalit, three years ago this week. Most have been charged with nothing more than membership in the militant Islamic group, which views them as hostages Israel would trade for the 22-year-old staff sergeant.

                          Last week an Israeli military prosecutor sought to have Dweik held beyond his sentence because of his prominence in Hamas, which Israel considers a terrorist organization. The court rejected the argument, saying it was the 60-year-old Pennsylvania-trained architect's academic credentials and political skills, not his Hamas affiliation, that earned him the parliament's top job. It also cited his diabetes and high blood pressure as grounds for letting him go.

                          lots of reasons for cheers.

                          a single person who is so emblematic with what is wrong with Hamas and terrorism.

                          i wish it was only a single person who is so emblematic with what is wrong with Israel and terrorism. i do know what you mean.

                          Israeli occupation forces stormed the village of Bil'in for the night
                          Tuesday-23-6-2009
                          Broke into a large force of Israeli occupation army at three in the morning on Tuesday, the village of Bil'in. And they searched the houses. They also kidnapped two children ,Khalil Yassin fifteen-year- years and Kamil Alkatib fifteen-year-. On the other hand they arrest all of Hassanain Mansour Mansour, the struggle of returning from the land located behind the house in the village of Bil'in, and took them to an unknown destination

                          happens all the time.

                      •  IDF Military Court = Kangaroo Court (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        heathlander

                        It falls far short of international standards of justice.

                        Insurance, Oil, Bank, and Defense corporations all have a substantial equity positions in what's supposed to be our Congress.

                        by Lefty Coaster on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 04:49:51 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Is that a fact? (4+ / 0-)

                          And you have evidence for this claim, do you?

                          "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                          by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 05:24:57 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  those evil judges, (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Karmafish, oldskooldem, volleyboy1

                            those evil jooodges

                            "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

                            by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 05:27:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I swear to God, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            deaniac20, oldskooldem

                            Lefty will just say anything, anything so long as it smears Israel or her supporters.

                            Anti-Zionism remains a disease on the left.

                            They just bang, bang, bang away at that wedge, as support for the Palestinian cause crumbles among liberal Jews and friends.

                            "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                            by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 05:31:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  honestly, it really bugs me (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Meteor Blades, Karmafish

                            how the anti-Zionists are trying to hijack our party thru the blogs and too many of the activists, thinking their party will repay them for their hatred of the Jews. Not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites, but all anti-semites are anti-Zionists. It is also really a shame they think they have a President who agrees with them. But with Obama's failure to pressure Palestinians as well as Israelis, or to even try to get them to the table, I think they may have a small victory, tho I hope my doubts about Obama are unfounded. Israel was another I voted Hillary as in the primary, she was a huge supporter and the "AIPAC candidate" according to many this site. Tho I fear she is selling out to the Obama agenda on the issue, of repeating his line that the settlements are the only thing that matters. But if Obama continues the course of not pressuring Palestine as well as Israel, and his foreign policy boat looks like its sinking, I have faith she, and others will jump ship. obama should get the negotiations going and then talk about the settlements. Yes I know its Bibi, but he wants to talk and now has huge support in Israel, and only talking settlements and nothing else will not bring about talks. Its a sad fact of life, but Bibi is not going anywhere. Obama is allowing these anti-Zionists to be more prominent by having all the focus on Israel but none on the Arabs, except trying to make them love us more, during his speech, which while well-intentioned, did not go over well with Israel supporters. He didn't even use the word "terrorism" once. Menendez, D of NJ even came out with a counter to the speech. Reid is trying to get Obama to get on the Palestinians. I fear the anti-Zionist voices are getting louder, contrary to the mainstream Democrats and Americans, which is not good for our party. Especially that Obama joined the UNCHR without pre-conditions. Obama's desire to make everyone love us in the Mid East is impeding him leading on Iran, while letting the Europeans take the lead on condemning Ahmad.

                            The lack of seeing Radical Islam as the new communism and fascism is also another troubling trend arising on the left these days. Hello, Radical Islam hates gays, women, civil liberties, and minorities even more violently and virulently than the Christian Right. Radical Islam should be bashed to hell on this site, not tried to be "understood" or "justified" by "imperialism." The blame America mentality is indeed real. Tho I don't think most "blame America" and do think that most do simply try to improve their country, there is a very real crowd which DOES blame America for all the world's problems. NO ONE should be accepting Hamas or Hezbollah, justifying it, or apologizing for it. NO ONE. Not even out of spite for me on my diary yesterday. I am NOT a neo-con. I believe Iraq was wrong, as do most Democrats. I am NOT for invading countries for no reason: but I am for confronting the medieval ideology behind the attacks on 9/11. And even tho Islam is younger than other religions, we all have to live today, and we cannot wait another 400 years to have peace. Obama should have told the Muslim world how we saved millions of Muslims in Europe, how we helped Muslims in the tsunami, and why America is so respected around the world, as an idea, despite our failures with Bush. He should have mentioned that Israel is the homeland to the Jews, not that it was just borne out of the Holocaust.

                            This anti-Zionism must not be allowed to spread. More pro-Israel people need to blog, and do it on here, on MyDD, the Israel advocacy groups need to pressure HuffPo to allow their voices to be heard too, more than just the occasional column. The mainstream democratic party supports Israel, but many of the anti-Zionists are young, and the voters of tomorrow. These professors, like Finkelstein are indoctrinating young kids, and getting away with it. It has to stop. American power is NOT evil. All superpowers make mistakes. But if the US is not a superpower, who should be?

                            "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

                            by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 06:27:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  While I disagree with parts ... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            deaniac20

                            ...of your comment, it's a reasonable presentation of your overall argument and a welcome relief, imo, from what you too often engage in when discussing these matters with people who disagree with you.

                            Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.

                            by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 06:29:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  adsf (0+ / 0-)

                            "how the anti-Zionists are trying to hijack our party thru the blogs and too many of the activists, thinking their party will repay them for their hatred of the Jews"

                            Riiiight. Real "reasonable".

                          •  in your dreams maybe (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Bidet

                            as support for the Palestinian cause crumbles

                          •  are all your responses (0+ / 0-)

                            short little lines?

                            "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

                            by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 07:57:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no /nt (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Bidet
                          •  just for you (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Karmafish, Terra Mystica, Bidet

                            from your other diary.

                            just to prove to you i can go on and on when i'm in the mood.

                            also, i recently visited w/families of prisoners in gaza. some of their loved ones have never been charged and the families have no idea when they will ever see their loved ones again. so given the amount of pushback on this diary for even the mention of these prisoners i thought it would be best if i simply kept my answers short and to the point. because if i told you how it really made me feel..this one soldier..well, it is a long sad story. one you probably don't want to hear right now. let's just say i don't see his release in a vacum only to be celebrated in isolation without figuring in all the implications. i do believe it is very good news tho. there is nothing i would like better than all the suffering to end.

                          •  My understanding is that Israel (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zannie, deaniac20

                            intends to give up to 1,000 prisoners in exchange for the one.

                            What I do not know is to what extent these people are innocent.

                            Nonetheless, if this is true, you must admit that it's a good deal and an important gesture towards peace.

                            It seems to me that what is needed here is a willingness to accept peace gestures when they come.

                            No?

                            "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                            by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 09:12:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I have no doubt what ... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...you say is true. But have you visited families of Palestinians who are being held in Palestinian jails without charge. An EU report says that 88% - a phenomenal percentage - of those held in Palestinian detention have no been tried or charged.

                            Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.

                            by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 06:24:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and support for the Palestinian cause (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Karmafish

                            could crumble if many people don't like the people who espouse it most.

                            "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

                            by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 07:57:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hey dean, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            deaniac20

                            I want to respond to your comment above, but it's lengthy and I want to give it proper consideration.

                            Cheers!

                            "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                            by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 08:03:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm outa here, mister. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            deaniac20

                            Pleasure to meet ya, but this is no place for self-respecting Jews.

                            Take care and thank you for standing up.

                            Best to you, please.

                            Cheers!

                            "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                            by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:58:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So any Jewish person who (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, csquared, Mike in Denmark

                            stays is self hating?

                          •  No, just me. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            weasel, deaniac20, csquared

                            But I'm working on it. :-D

                            -1.50, -3.95 | VA 2009: Deeds / Wagner / Shannon

                            by Red Sox on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 08:48:28 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  For crap like this (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            csquared

                            Pleasure to meet ya, but this is no place for self-respecting Jews.

                            good riddance!

                          •  It's not crumbling, in general. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            deaniac20

                            What I am curious about is the degree in shift among liberal Jews.

                            It might be that support has increased.  That might very well be, actually.

                            My personal experience is that anti-Zionism has pushed me away from support and I wonder how many others, among Jews in the liberal grassroots / netroots feel likewise?

                            I have no data... just my personal feelings, thoughts, and experience.

                            "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                            by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 08:00:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  re 'liberal jews' (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, Terra Mystica

                            it may be helpful to try erasing all the labels off everyone and observe this as a human rights issue. i know that is difficult for you because of your own personal identification issues but it may bring some clarity in terms of how many members of the human community are absorbing the information wrt I/P.

                            when one attributes characteristics to certain groups of people it can help to facilitate a predisposition to certain responses. for example if one were to imagine all pals to be terrorists or one to imagine all jews to be evil or vice versa. but when you take all that pre thought away and just look at it as a humanitarian crisis the picture changes and becomes starkly clearer.. it is safe to assume liberal jews are going to be reacting the same way liberals in general are going to react. they are just people first and foremost. given the circumstances i think many moderate minded people are going to be swayed by the conditions on the ground. israel knows that, otherwise they would have allowed the international community to witness the events of the invasion. this is why the media is so important.

                            so, we have the sad situation of israel and to many it pales in comparison to a truly drastic humanitarian situation/crisis occurring in areas of occupied/controlled palestine. with the advent of the internet and stuff it makes events on the ground more transparent.

                            frankly, it doesn't really matter how much of a bastard i am or how rude i am. most people have limits in terms of how much of a humanitarian nightmare they will condone for moral reasons.

                            i just finished a few weeks of touring the situation there. i witnessed things i never thought i would ever see in my life. from a new israel family fresh from nyc who just moved right into a house in east jerusalem that has been owned and occupied by the same arab family since 1957. who now live in a tent in the yard. there are 3 24/7 guards who stand in a little guard booth on the hill above their house making sure the original inhabitants don't move back in and they've hung banners of israeli flags all throughout the property. it is sort of bindboggling. all the little kids running around in the yard w/the curly sideburns looking like  botticelli cherubs. apparently some jewish contractor from new york is set to develope the hillside. and on the front page of the haaretz that day the israeli supreme court is asking why some settlers who have been ordered to leave this one other place are still there, and the idf protect the settlers against the wishes of the supreme court.

                            its like weird. the whole thing is weird. and on television the commercials have this guy saying how god gave them the land. the taxi driver ask me why i didn't just read the bible cuz its all in there. and they have separate roads and towns and villages w/no exits for the roads. all these people live around eachother and don't merge. and across the walls people are suffering. there are some drastic fundamental problems that no amount of religious affiliation can justify. i don't care if a person is jewish muslim or christian, it is just wrong. it's all screwed up. it requires massive intervention. this is not going to come down to people dividing over religion. it will come down to people dividing over basic principles of right and wrong and human rights. and right now israel is on the wrong side of history. liberal jews will come down on the side of whats right, common sense will prevail. zionism isn't looking or acting very pretty right now. on paper it all sounds very reasonable. jews having their own country la di da. but the actuality of how it's working out, and the immigration of all those russians who aren't even jewish to balance out the population?

                            bottom line you have a piece of land where 1/2 the population has no rights, no vote in terms of who really controls them (let's be honest about the actual 'power' of the palestinian 'authority'), and they call themselves a democracy. well, it ain't gonna fly for the long haul. it just won't. the only way israel can survive as a zionist society is to make accommodations for the other half of the population.

                            the saddest part of it is there are so many really wonderful people over there. the fact that they can't get along is the saddest thing. i met the most incredible people on my trip in all the areas i traveled.

                            i am so encouraged right now that there will be a breakthru for peace in the coming near future. i really believe it. i don't know how, but i believe it can happen. i think this is a sign of the beginning of the process. we just have to have an abundance of faith in all the parties involved, and be able to shed our past judgements about what and who is justified. we have to find reconciliations and accommodations.

                          •  also, you should see (0+ / 0-)

                            the evil anti-semitism which Huffington Post allows. This is scary, and if these people become the mainstream who post on this thing against Israel, I'm out. You can even find a poster talking about how great the USSR was to be a "champion of emerging nations" while the US failed to be "anti-colonialist" by supporting Israel. Anti-Zionism on the left is a scary and creepy trend.

                            "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

                            by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:16:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  when you say evil (0+ / 0-)

                            are you referencing the comment section? because i couldn't find anything radical in the article at your link. i didn't read thru all the comments as there are pages of them. does huffington monitor that site? do you think the comments are more radical than what one could find at lgf of red state? huff isn't a place i hang out at to be familiar with their posters. what kind of evil anti-semitism are you referencing?

                        •  Specifics, please. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                          Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.

                          by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 06:21:33 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  Yer right. (4+ / 0-)

                We shouldn't celebrate the possible release of Gilad Shalit so long as there are people being held unjustly in Israel's prisons.

                Of course, even if they get released (and Israel is talking about releasing 1,000 just for Shalit) we still should not celebrate because what about the thousands, tens of thousands, being held unjustly throughout the world, including in the US?

                Thus we should not care about Gilad Shalit.

                Yet... strangely... I do!

                :O)

                Another toast!

                To the freedom of Gilad Shalit.

                Cheers!

                "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:20:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  but not 10,000 Palestinians are worth the concern (1+ / 4-)
                Recommended by:
                heathlander
                Hidden by:
                dufffbeer, leftynyc, oldskooldem, zemblan

                no matter their plight, compared with one Israeli.

                that's the new math for some here. the math of racism and hatred.

                "The sword of murder is not the balance of justice." Mom's Day Statement

                by Tom J on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:20:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  What are you disgusted by? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zannie, heathlander, Terra Mystica, Conure

        I am certainly disgusted that the plight of one Israeli soldier attracts more attention than that of thousands of imprisoned Palestinians.

        If I read you correctly you think one Israeli soldier's freedom is worth MORE than that of thousands of Palestinians. Or what are you trying to say?

        I'm all for rejoicing at Shalit's release, but this is the result of a prisoner exchange. Is Shalit the only person being released who has friends and family, indeed a whole people, waiting for him? One would think so from this diary and comments.

    •  10000 Palestinians > 1 Israeli? (7+ / 1-)

      disgusting. Also, way to ruin the tone of the diary. This was supposed to be a great moment for everyone, as this helps both sides. But you turn it into demagoguery.

      "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

      by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:12:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  10,000 is more than One. Yes, it is. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Christopher Day

        not sure what your point was, but your math...
        oh man, it really is true what they say about the state of math/science studies in this country.

        thanks for the amusement, deaniac, as always.

        "The sword of murder is not the balance of justice." Mom's Day Statement

        by Tom J on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:35:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the people Israel holds (4+ / 0-)

          are largely militants in terrorist organizations. Plus, Israel already released a top Hamas leader. So there is no excuse for Hamas not to release Shalit. so 1=1.

          "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

          by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:39:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Most of the people in Israeli jails (5+ / 0-)

            are there illegally. Hundreds of them have never been charged or tried, and thousands more have been convicted without recieving due process or on the basis of evidence extracted by torture. Israeli officials have conceded to the use of torture in interrogations, which multiple human rights organisations have reported is "systematic" and "routine". Many Palestinian children have reported being victims of torture, most of them having been accused of nothing more than throwing stones.

            This in contrast to Gilad Shalit, who was quite openly a member of an occupying army.

          •  The way to look at this today... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CN, deaniac20, volleyboy1

            ...is that Shalit's release, and the other measures taken by each side in the last 24 hours, will hasten the day when there are no prisoners on either side.

    •  shit tom j (6+ / 0-)

      is it any wonder that the WB has been progressing so well recently, what with the militants now off the streets. New reports have Israel leaving security entirely to PA forces in four cites in the WB. that's an amazing development

      Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

      by Keith Moon on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:18:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  WB progressing? really? (5+ / 0-)

        homes are being demolished, farms are being plowed under, continued settler violence against Palestinian civilians with Israeli military support, Israel refuses even the incredibly modest demand that the illegal settlements not expand, so that Israelis continue to be subsidized to live in the West Bank making a future Palestinian State there, even the most minimal, impossible.

        Progressing for who?

        such a loony comment, but i responded anyway.

        "The sword of murder is not the balance of justice." Mom's Day Statement

        by Tom J on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:33:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well (5+ / 0-)

          read up buddy

          such a bizarre comment but I responded none the less.  

          Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

          by Keith Moon on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:07:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, you can believe Keith (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lefty Coaster, Terra Mystica

          or you can believe the World Bank and everyone else who knows the slightest thing about the situation.

          •  It looks like they're building (4+ / 0-)

            a luxury shopping mall in Jenin.

            http://www.haaretz.com/...

            The skies lit up over Jenin last month, and it wasn't tracer bullets or flash bombs but celebratory fireworks, set off to mark the occasion of the opening of Hirbawi Home Center, a new luxury establishment on the city's outskirts.

            The five-story building near the Jalame checkpoint cost $5 million to build, says its owner, and it is filled with deluxe, foreign-made products seen mostly in the pages of newspaper supplements.

            Wow.  That shows progress, for sure.

            This may not sound like the familiar description of the occupied territories - the impoverished Palestinian village or the overcrowded refugee camp, a population sustaining itself on international aid. But it turns out that quite a few Palestinians consider a plasma screen, a surround sound stereo and comfortable chairs to be fairly essential items.

            Good for them.

            Another toast!

            To the potential prosperity of the Palestinian people.

            L'chaim!

            "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

            by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:33:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But its a (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CN, Karmafish, zemblan, Borat Sagdiyev

              shopping mall built under Occupation (TM) and as such any goods purchased in the shopping mall are Occupation (TM) goods and should be boycotted by both the stores selling them (which are, in fact, Occupation (TM) stores) and the consumers in such stores (who are in fact Occupation (TM) consumers).  Until the brutal Occupation (TM) ends by the Occupation (TM) government, there can be no true freedom for the people of Jenin or its evil Occupation (TM) shoppers and no true progress can be made until all of my demands have been met--because compromise is evil when you have an incorrect interpretation of International Law on your side!

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:37:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  yeh, maybe you should inform (0+ / 0-)

              the World Bank, I'm sure it would benefit from your obvious expertise.

              •  Well, the West Bank (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zemblan

                ranks 166 out of 229 in terms of GDP per capita.

                https://www.cia.gov/...

                This means that it's economy is superior, on that basis, to Nicaragua, Pakistan, Yemen, Kosovo, Sudan, Cambodia, North Korea, Madagascar, Mozambique, Yemen, Camaroon, and a bunch of other countries.

                Yet another toast!

                To Palestinian ingenuity, enterprise, and potential prosperity.

                Cheers!

                "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:54:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Whereas (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Karmafish, heathlander

                  the same link shows that Israel ranks at 49, ahead of such countries as New Zealand, the Czech Republic, South Korea, Malta, Portugal and Slovakia.

                  The comparison provides a context in which the significance of the WB's rating of 166 can be accurately assessed. The image of highrises adjacent squalid shanty towns comes to mind.

                  It's an explosive contrast.

              •  Oh, and btw, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                oldskooldem, Borat Sagdiyev

                Israel ranks in at 49, just ahead of New Zealand.

                That's pretty good, when ya think on it.

                I mean, they were able to create a Western European economic level despite constant harassment since, well, before the country was even created.

                Good for them.

                A toast to the Israelis!

                "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 01:34:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  You're right (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CN, Karmafish, Borat Sagdiyev, volleyboy1

      Fatah and Hamas should stop torturing prisoners in their custody.

      In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

      by Paul in Berkeley on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 01:05:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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