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View Diary: Gilad Shalit to be released.  A gesture leading to peace? (170 comments)

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  •  those evil judges, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Karmafish, oldskooldem, volleyboy1

    those evil jooodges

    "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

    by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 05:27:08 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I swear to God, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      deaniac20, oldskooldem

      Lefty will just say anything, anything so long as it smears Israel or her supporters.

      Anti-Zionism remains a disease on the left.

      They just bang, bang, bang away at that wedge, as support for the Palestinian cause crumbles among liberal Jews and friends.

      "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

      by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 05:31:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  honestly, it really bugs me (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades, Karmafish

        how the anti-Zionists are trying to hijack our party thru the blogs and too many of the activists, thinking their party will repay them for their hatred of the Jews. Not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites, but all anti-semites are anti-Zionists. It is also really a shame they think they have a President who agrees with them. But with Obama's failure to pressure Palestinians as well as Israelis, or to even try to get them to the table, I think they may have a small victory, tho I hope my doubts about Obama are unfounded. Israel was another I voted Hillary as in the primary, she was a huge supporter and the "AIPAC candidate" according to many this site. Tho I fear she is selling out to the Obama agenda on the issue, of repeating his line that the settlements are the only thing that matters. But if Obama continues the course of not pressuring Palestine as well as Israel, and his foreign policy boat looks like its sinking, I have faith she, and others will jump ship. obama should get the negotiations going and then talk about the settlements. Yes I know its Bibi, but he wants to talk and now has huge support in Israel, and only talking settlements and nothing else will not bring about talks. Its a sad fact of life, but Bibi is not going anywhere. Obama is allowing these anti-Zionists to be more prominent by having all the focus on Israel but none on the Arabs, except trying to make them love us more, during his speech, which while well-intentioned, did not go over well with Israel supporters. He didn't even use the word "terrorism" once. Menendez, D of NJ even came out with a counter to the speech. Reid is trying to get Obama to get on the Palestinians. I fear the anti-Zionist voices are getting louder, contrary to the mainstream Democrats and Americans, which is not good for our party. Especially that Obama joined the UNCHR without pre-conditions. Obama's desire to make everyone love us in the Mid East is impeding him leading on Iran, while letting the Europeans take the lead on condemning Ahmad.

        The lack of seeing Radical Islam as the new communism and fascism is also another troubling trend arising on the left these days. Hello, Radical Islam hates gays, women, civil liberties, and minorities even more violently and virulently than the Christian Right. Radical Islam should be bashed to hell on this site, not tried to be "understood" or "justified" by "imperialism." The blame America mentality is indeed real. Tho I don't think most "blame America" and do think that most do simply try to improve their country, there is a very real crowd which DOES blame America for all the world's problems. NO ONE should be accepting Hamas or Hezbollah, justifying it, or apologizing for it. NO ONE. Not even out of spite for me on my diary yesterday. I am NOT a neo-con. I believe Iraq was wrong, as do most Democrats. I am NOT for invading countries for no reason: but I am for confronting the medieval ideology behind the attacks on 9/11. And even tho Islam is younger than other religions, we all have to live today, and we cannot wait another 400 years to have peace. Obama should have told the Muslim world how we saved millions of Muslims in Europe, how we helped Muslims in the tsunami, and why America is so respected around the world, as an idea, despite our failures with Bush. He should have mentioned that Israel is the homeland to the Jews, not that it was just borne out of the Holocaust.

        This anti-Zionism must not be allowed to spread. More pro-Israel people need to blog, and do it on here, on MyDD, the Israel advocacy groups need to pressure HuffPo to allow their voices to be heard too, more than just the occasional column. The mainstream democratic party supports Israel, but many of the anti-Zionists are young, and the voters of tomorrow. These professors, like Finkelstein are indoctrinating young kids, and getting away with it. It has to stop. American power is NOT evil. All superpowers make mistakes. But if the US is not a superpower, who should be?

        "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

        by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 06:27:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  While I disagree with parts ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          deaniac20

          ...of your comment, it's a reasonable presentation of your overall argument and a welcome relief, imo, from what you too often engage in when discussing these matters with people who disagree with you.

          Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.

          by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 06:29:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  in your dreams maybe (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bidet

        as support for the Palestinian cause crumbles

        •  are all your responses (0+ / 0-)

          short little lines?

          "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

          by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 07:57:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  no /nt (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bidet
          •  just for you (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Karmafish, Terra Mystica, Bidet

            from your other diary.

            just to prove to you i can go on and on when i'm in the mood.

            also, i recently visited w/families of prisoners in gaza. some of their loved ones have never been charged and the families have no idea when they will ever see their loved ones again. so given the amount of pushback on this diary for even the mention of these prisoners i thought it would be best if i simply kept my answers short and to the point. because if i told you how it really made me feel..this one soldier..well, it is a long sad story. one you probably don't want to hear right now. let's just say i don't see his release in a vacum only to be celebrated in isolation without figuring in all the implications. i do believe it is very good news tho. there is nothing i would like better than all the suffering to end.

            •  My understanding is that Israel (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zannie, deaniac20

              intends to give up to 1,000 prisoners in exchange for the one.

              What I do not know is to what extent these people are innocent.

              Nonetheless, if this is true, you must admit that it's a good deal and an important gesture towards peace.

              It seems to me that what is needed here is a willingness to accept peace gestures when they come.

              No?

              "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

              by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 09:12:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I have no doubt what ... (0+ / 0-)

              ...you say is true. But have you visited families of Palestinians who are being held in Palestinian jails without charge. An EU report says that 88% - a phenomenal percentage - of those held in Palestinian detention have no been tried or charged.

              Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.

              by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 06:24:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  and support for the Palestinian cause (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Karmafish

          could crumble if many people don't like the people who espouse it most.

          "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

          by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 07:57:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's not crumbling, in general. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          deaniac20

          What I am curious about is the degree in shift among liberal Jews.

          It might be that support has increased.  That might very well be, actually.

          My personal experience is that anti-Zionism has pushed me away from support and I wonder how many others, among Jews in the liberal grassroots / netroots feel likewise?

          I have no data... just my personal feelings, thoughts, and experience.

          "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

          by Karmafish on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 08:00:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  re 'liberal jews' (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza, Terra Mystica

            it may be helpful to try erasing all the labels off everyone and observe this as a human rights issue. i know that is difficult for you because of your own personal identification issues but it may bring some clarity in terms of how many members of the human community are absorbing the information wrt I/P.

            when one attributes characteristics to certain groups of people it can help to facilitate a predisposition to certain responses. for example if one were to imagine all pals to be terrorists or one to imagine all jews to be evil or vice versa. but when you take all that pre thought away and just look at it as a humanitarian crisis the picture changes and becomes starkly clearer.. it is safe to assume liberal jews are going to be reacting the same way liberals in general are going to react. they are just people first and foremost. given the circumstances i think many moderate minded people are going to be swayed by the conditions on the ground. israel knows that, otherwise they would have allowed the international community to witness the events of the invasion. this is why the media is so important.

            so, we have the sad situation of israel and to many it pales in comparison to a truly drastic humanitarian situation/crisis occurring in areas of occupied/controlled palestine. with the advent of the internet and stuff it makes events on the ground more transparent.

            frankly, it doesn't really matter how much of a bastard i am or how rude i am. most people have limits in terms of how much of a humanitarian nightmare they will condone for moral reasons.

            i just finished a few weeks of touring the situation there. i witnessed things i never thought i would ever see in my life. from a new israel family fresh from nyc who just moved right into a house in east jerusalem that has been owned and occupied by the same arab family since 1957. who now live in a tent in the yard. there are 3 24/7 guards who stand in a little guard booth on the hill above their house making sure the original inhabitants don't move back in and they've hung banners of israeli flags all throughout the property. it is sort of bindboggling. all the little kids running around in the yard w/the curly sideburns looking like  botticelli cherubs. apparently some jewish contractor from new york is set to develope the hillside. and on the front page of the haaretz that day the israeli supreme court is asking why some settlers who have been ordered to leave this one other place are still there, and the idf protect the settlers against the wishes of the supreme court.

            its like weird. the whole thing is weird. and on television the commercials have this guy saying how god gave them the land. the taxi driver ask me why i didn't just read the bible cuz its all in there. and they have separate roads and towns and villages w/no exits for the roads. all these people live around eachother and don't merge. and across the walls people are suffering. there are some drastic fundamental problems that no amount of religious affiliation can justify. i don't care if a person is jewish muslim or christian, it is just wrong. it's all screwed up. it requires massive intervention. this is not going to come down to people dividing over religion. it will come down to people dividing over basic principles of right and wrong and human rights. and right now israel is on the wrong side of history. liberal jews will come down on the side of whats right, common sense will prevail. zionism isn't looking or acting very pretty right now. on paper it all sounds very reasonable. jews having their own country la di da. but the actuality of how it's working out, and the immigration of all those russians who aren't even jewish to balance out the population?

            bottom line you have a piece of land where 1/2 the population has no rights, no vote in terms of who really controls them (let's be honest about the actual 'power' of the palestinian 'authority'), and they call themselves a democracy. well, it ain't gonna fly for the long haul. it just won't. the only way israel can survive as a zionist society is to make accommodations for the other half of the population.

            the saddest part of it is there are so many really wonderful people over there. the fact that they can't get along is the saddest thing. i met the most incredible people on my trip in all the areas i traveled.

            i am so encouraged right now that there will be a breakthru for peace in the coming near future. i really believe it. i don't know how, but i believe it can happen. i think this is a sign of the beginning of the process. we just have to have an abundance of faith in all the parties involved, and be able to shed our past judgements about what and who is justified. we have to find reconciliations and accommodations.

      •  also, you should see (0+ / 0-)

        the evil anti-semitism which Huffington Post allows. This is scary, and if these people become the mainstream who post on this thing against Israel, I'm out. You can even find a poster talking about how great the USSR was to be a "champion of emerging nations" while the US failed to be "anti-colonialist" by supporting Israel. Anti-Zionism on the left is a scary and creepy trend.

        "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

        by deaniac20 on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:16:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  when you say evil (0+ / 0-)

          are you referencing the comment section? because i couldn't find anything radical in the article at your link. i didn't read thru all the comments as there are pages of them. does huffington monitor that site? do you think the comments are more radical than what one could find at lgf of red state? huff isn't a place i hang out at to be familiar with their posters. what kind of evil anti-semitism are you referencing?

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