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View Diary: For some of them, it IS about the fetus, and NOT about the sex (97 comments)

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  •  Well it does (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn, BYw, Pris from LA, Toon

    make a distinction between women who did and did not choose to have sex, and gives the latter a moral claim but denies it to the former. So it does punish and discourage sex, if implemented. And if you read the Napoli quote from above, it's clear that there are a people for which this is part of their worldview about the purity of women.

    •  logical fail though (0+ / 0-)

      And if you read the Napoli quote from above, it's clear that there are a people for which this is part of their worldview about the purity of women.

      That doesn't mean it applies to all or even most people with this certain view about abortion.

      All this wasted time learning and acquiring skills... And all along I should have just squinted to see Russia

      by fizziks on Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 07:26:28 PM PDT

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      •  Napoli is just the most egregious (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BYw, Toon

        example that was publicly spoken and recorded. No doubt most people are far, far, from his view. But the whole idea that the circumstances that a woman is in should determine whether or not abortion is legal completely makes it about the morality of the woman and her moral standing based on what she did, in other words judging her.

        I think what you're trying to say is that not all those who hold those views to some extent are bad people, or as extreme as being made out in thereisnospoon's diary. Which I agree.

        •  I'm saying something more than that (0+ / 0-)

          One can see rape as a great tragedy without viewing womens' sexuality as a bad thing.

          All this wasted time learning and acquiring skills... And all along I should have just squinted to see Russia

          by fizziks on Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 07:45:36 PM PDT

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          •  Oh no (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            st minutia, BYw, Pris from LA, Toon

            it's not about seeing rape itself as a tragedy. It's about seeing women who have been raped as automatically somehow deserving of a choice while women who have not been raped do not. Women who have not been raped can still have pretty compelling reasons for having an abortion.

            Of course, the pro choice position is not that X is more worthy than Y but that the decision should be up to the woman and not the government.

            The official pro life position is that life (as in full moral personhood in our society) begins at conception and that is the clear, bright dividing line. That is important becacuse that is what they use to refute us: they argue that choice is irrelevant because when you have full personhood, you can't choose murder. thereisnospoon was reacting to that official position, rather than what pro-lifers actually send out as signals, and pointing out that the two are incompatible.

            •  ok but (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Wufacta

              I guess what I am saying then is that many pro-life people, including people that I know, have a more nuanced view than the official position.

              They believe, I guess, that a fetus is a being deserving of some protection and consideration, but not as much as a full person.  Therefore, moral weightings come into play for them, and they weigh the fetus against other considerations and come to their conclusions.

              I suppose that, yes, the 'official position' and the rape/incest exemption are extremely incompatible.  But a) that diary was not calling the official position bullshitting hypocrites but rather actual people that I know, and b) if we are going to change people's minds even a bit we need to engage with their actual feelings.

              All this wasted time learning and acquiring skills... And all along I should have just squinted to see Russia

              by fizziks on Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 07:56:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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