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View Diary: Bolton Says: Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran (332 comments)

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  •  What gives US right to bomb Iran? (6+ / 0-)

    I never quite understood the right wing chickenhawks legal position.  What is the legal justification for US bombing Iran if Iran or anyone else wants to develop nuclear weapons.  US would not abide any other country telling US it could or could not have nukes.

    Iran has not attacked the US.  Legally, US bombing Iran would be no different than Bin Laden bombing NY.

    Be interesting to hear US media put that question to Bolton. What is his justification for bombing Iran over developing nukes? Why didn't we bomb Pakistan to prevent it from developing nukes?

    •  Yes, I'd like a rational answer to that one. (3+ / 0-)

      Especially since Iran is a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

      A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

      by Flyswatterbanjo on Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 09:07:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't see Non-proliferation treaty as legal cause (0+ / 0-)

        If Iran broke the treaty by building nukes, I don't there is anything in the treaty that has bombing as the consequences.  So no legal shelter there for Bolton.

    •  As Phil Ochs once wrote ... (8+ / 0-)

      ...We're the cops of the world. (The song, written in an era, still resonates):

      Come, get out of the way, boys
      Quick, get out of the way
      You'd better watch what you say, boys
      Better watch what you say
      We've rammed in your harbor and tied to your port
      And our pistols are hungry and our tempers are short
      So bring your daughters around to the port
      'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
      We're the Cops of the World

      We pick and choose as please, boys
      Pick and choose as please
      You'd best get down on your knees, boys
      Best get down on your knees
      We're hairy and horny and ready to shack
      And we don't care if you're yellow or black
      Just take off your clothes and lay down on your back
      'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
      We're the Cops of the World

      Our boots are needing a shine, boys
      Boots are needing a shine
      But our Coca-Cola is fine, boys
      Coca-Cola is fine
      We've got to protect all our citizens fair
      So we'll send a battalion for everyone there
      And maybe we'll leave in a couple of years
      'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
      We're the Cops of the World

      And dump the reds in a pile, boys
      Dump the reds in a pile
      You'd better wipe off that smile, boys
      Better wipe off that smile
      We'll spit through the streets of the cities we wreck
      And we'll find you a leader that you can't elect
      Those treaties we signed were a pain in the neck
      'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
      We're the Cops of the World

      And clean the johns with a rag, boys
      Clean the johns with a rag
      If you like you can use your flag, boys
      If you like you can use your flag
      We've got too much money we're looking for toys
      And guns will be guns and boys will be boys
      But we'll gladly pay for all we destroy
      'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
      We're the Cops of the World

      Please stay off of the grass, boys
      Please stay off of the grass
      Here's a kick in the ass, boys
      Here's a kick in the ass
      We'll smash down your doors, we don't bother to knock
      We've done it before, so why all the shock
      We're the biggest and the toughest kids on the block
      And we're the Cops of the World, boys
      We're the Cops of the World

      And when we butchered your sons, boys
      When we butchered your sons
      Have a stick of our gum, boys
      Have a stick of our bubble gum
      We own half the world, oh say can you see
      And the name for our profits is democracy
      So, like it or not, you will have to be free
      'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
      We're the Cops of the World

      Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.

      by Meteor Blades on Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 09:27:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I will try to explain the logic.... (3+ / 0-)

      ....Iran is very involved with terrorist orginizations. The Basiji that has been running rampent on the heads of the Iranian protestors are not all Iranian, many are Arab speaking Hezbollah members. Hired terrorist mercenaries, sent to terrorize thier own people and do things like shoot Neda for no good reason.

      The logic goes, the psycho religious nutballs that run Iran, being involved and having no qualms about using terrorism and support terrorist groups that think as they do... like death to America, Death to Israel, etc... are NOT going to be allowed to possess and transfer nuclear weapons technology.

      Not even if it requires the annihilation of the Iranian people.

      Now Israel would likely be a higher priority target than the US (who they see as a zionist puppet and financial/military supporter), so Israel is not likely to stand around with thier thumbs up thier asses, while a potential nuclear threat blossoms in Iran.

      You know, Iran, who has repeatedly made clear its desire, with rhetoric and direct military support to terrorists, to wipe Isreal off the earth.

      We and the UN and our allies cannot let Israel be the one to go in and take ouot the threat. To do so could open up a regional war which could spread to a world war.... Jews attack Muslims, film at 11.

      The only military force on earth that can take out Iran's capabilities without having to obliterate their entire nation.... is US. It's simply the way it is. We can nuetralize thier military and leadership in 24 hours, take out all communications, power, water, sewer, bridges, mass transit, effectively ending all infrastructure within a week. Leaving us free to send special forces in to capture and destroy thier facilities, and there is nothing the Iranians can do to stop us.

      It is also NOT in our best interest to allow or advocate some "other" power to build up to that point and then do the deed... like say China.

      So, Iran will keep it up, because thier leadership cant help itself.

      Time will run out and the UN, Europeans, Iran's neighbors, Israel, and the US will all decide they must be stopped and diplomacy is exhausted.

      We will be tasked and authorized by the UN to neutralize the Iranian nuclear threat by any and all means nessecary. It isn't about Democrats and Republicans. It is all in the hands of the Iranian leadership, and they seem hell bent on suicide. Obama and the UN will try everything, but in the end, diplomacy will fail.

      In the meantime, the Iranian PEOPLE have a responsiblity to the world and thier fellow man. They have allowed thier psycho religious nut government to run rampant, supporting terrorists (and losing Iran all credibility as a nation that could "be trusted" with nuclear weapons), and they have allowed thier nation to paint itself into a corner. They have a RESPONSIBILTY, even at the risk of thier own lives, to stop thier government from crossing the line. They are in total control of thier own destiny. They can stop the nuclear pursuit, or they can face the consequences for the actions thier government has wrought.

      ... at least thats how I understand the logic and justification for the US ultimately having to take action in Iran, and how it will be "legal".

      Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just answering the question.

      •  But no legal justification for bombing Iran. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt, The Jester

        Iran is a potential threat but then so is every other country, even our allies, to some degree.

        Being a potential threat, even a nuclear one, is not a legal justification for bombing Iran.

        •  Not really... (0+ / 0-)

          the Brits and the French are not about to attack us, or Russia, or China, or anyone.

          Russia remains locked in a standoff with the US, we have achieved parity and are reducing weapons inventory steadily... target 3800 each? Currently passing the 8,000 mark each. Neither of us will attack each other or anyone else.

          China has built a purely defensive capacity, and pose no real threat.

          We have a 50 year record of trust built up with the other nuclear powers, that we wont kill them and they wont kill us. You EARN trust, over time.

          India and Pakistan are a threat to each other, but as yet are not a threat to anyone else. Hopefully Obama can use the Afghan situation to actually reach peace between India and Pakistan.... if he recognizes the opportunity.

          North Korea is inept, but can spread info/tech which is why Obama has a sub and destroyer following that cargo ship with orders to board and search the moment it enters a neutral port... under UN orders. We would go into NK if they weren't holding SK hostage.

          Iran has a proven track record of support and collaboration with terror organizations, has made it clear its policy is death to america death to israel, so they simply are NOT trustworthy by any sane people to possess nuclear weapons... and it is THIER OWN FAULT the US, EU, Israel, and thier own neighbors feel that way.

          It becomes a test case for whether or not you have a strong survival instinct. Those who do simply will not allow Iran to get into that position.

          •  The Jester: No evidence needed (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            The Jester

            Shouldn't we have some evidence this time? You seem prepared to suffer another debacle on the order of the failure to find Iraqi WMD.

            •  Agreed, I am entrusting the administration... (0+ / 0-)

              ... to be sure. And this administration will lay it all out for us, honestly, and we shall decide as a nation whether to act. I think the information infrastructure that we have all built since the idiocy of Bush will allow us to both cut through any bullshit and make it very clear we wont stand for a snow job again.

              I could be wrong, and we could have Bush II unfold, but so far I'm giving Obama the benefit of the doubt.

              •  Trust is enough (0+ / 0-)

                As much as I support Obama and his administration, trusting them to prosecute torturers, or to provide transparence with respect to Cheney's involvement in Plamegate, or to renounce Bush-style indefinite detention, is not enough. We need to see the evidence, not trust that Obama has it. If he has it, he can show it. If he doesn't, are you willing to trust again?

      •  Short answer: (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GN1927, kurt, unspeakable, The Jester

        It's legal if we say it is.

        You have a good grap of neocon logic. I'm sure now you feel the need to soak your eyeballs in bleach, as do I.

      •  That's a pretty accurate representation ... (6+ / 0-)

        ...of their wrong-headed views. Here are a couple that should be debunked because they may not be obvious:

        There are 1 million Iranians whose first language is Arabic, and in the urban areas they often make up an underclass that is attracted to the militias, where they can gain status. So the Basiji Arabic speakers may or may not be Hezbollah.

        The idea that the U.S. can destroy everything that needs to be neutralized in Iran in 24 (or 48 or 96) hours to pave the way for special forces is about as sane as was their claim that the troops sent to Iraq will be home by Christmas (2003).

        Some people would be better off not reading diaries they comment on, since they already have all the answers.

        by Meteor Blades on Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 10:52:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Meteor, you and others appear to be (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          The Jester

          asserting the proposition that bombing of Iran nuclear facilicies must be an "all or nothing" attack. You state (in one of the comments to your diary) that 3 of the sites are known and could be destroyed from the air: Natanz, Bushir, and Arak.  The location of many of the other facilities is likely unknown.

          So a more reasonable goal for Israel may be to degrade the Iranian nuclear effort and thus delay Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons.  The three facilities above are no doubt of major importance.  Further, there are hundreds of nuclear scientists and technicians (Iranian and foreign) working at these facilities.  The fact that they are now working at a potential bomb target has to become a big disincentive (especially for the foreign scientists) to continue working at these locations.  It is conceivable that taking out only one of these targets may be enough to seriously degrade, delay, and generally cause chaos within the Iranian nuclear program.

        •  Meteor, excellent diary, a discussion... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kimball Cross

          ... sorely missing when Iraq was the subject.

          On the US ability to neutralize the Iranian military in hours... it is simply the fact.

          We have spent $400+ billion per year for decades to build this capability.

          Let me give you the break down, and understand most of the forces required are already PRESENT in the area and awaiting orders.

          Simultaneously:

          The Navy will bring attack subs into range of Iranian Navy ships, seals will lay mines and plant explosives on Iranian ships in port.

          The 3 aircraft carriers will pull within operations distance, the electronic countermeasures ready to go. Nothing will get near them, when Aegis goes on, the Iranians will only "see" any other three carriers.

          The "wild weasels" will launch and fly toward Iran.

          B2s and stealth fighters will be on thier way to strike communications and leadership.

          Synchronized, at zero hour, the Ministry's required will blow up, critical power plants will go dark, the Navy will sink the Iranian navy, the wild weasels will turn on the countermeasures and Iranian air defense will see 2,000+ fake aircraft inbound.

          Iranian air defenses stupid enough to turn on thier radars will be destroyed by antiradiation missles from the wild weasels.

          Hundreds of F18's F15's and F16's will race in, and will shoot down any Iranian aircraft that get off the ground, destroy all aircraft on the ground, and bomb the living shit out of Iranian military bases that pose any threat.

          Once the air defenses are neutralized, the next phase can occur.... which will depend on just what it is we are going to do. 24 to 48 hours have passed. It will be done at night, with the assault on the sites the following night. Prime ramification is Iranian missle attacks at US forces in Iraq and Afganistan and at Israel... IF they can get them fired before communications is cut, or if site commanders have authority to launch.

          A precision action to destroy the nuclear sites will involve air support to prevent reinforcement of security at the sites, and special forces/marine asaults by air of the facilities to arrange self-destruct. Part of the force will build air strips to bug out, while the rest will destroy the facilities. C17's and helicopters will extract the assault forces. Big explosions ensue, facilities destroyed.

          OR

          A "total war" action would have the B52's from Deigo Garcia appear, delivering 44,000 500lb bombs PER DAY on Iran, to destroy every single item of infrastructure... every bridge, water plant, dam, sewer treatment plant, power and communications facility, government building, military asset, on down the list until they reach The Supreme Leader's outhouse. This would take 1-2 weeks and leave Iran utterly obliterated using only conventional weapons.

          In neither case would we harm the Iranian oil facilities.... cough.

          Again, don't shoot the messenger, this is simply taken from the Desert Storm playbook and what has been discussed in the media over the years.

      •  Good analysis, however, you wrote (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Jester

        We will be tasked and authorized by the UN to neutralize the Iranian nuclear threat by any and all means nessecary.

        I don't see any chance of that happening.  The UN can't even condemn the Sudanese gov't for the genocide in Darfur, there is no way they will authorize force to be used against Iran nukes.

        •  Agreed, but truth is the major powers... (0+ / 0-)

          ... ARE the UN. The security counsel controls the agenda, and the 5 permanent members control the counsel.

          So, as with Iraq and NKorea and Iran so far, and all the sanctions, it is infact WE and the other members who'd be authorizing ourselves to implement sanctions.... just like how Iraq played out.

          As for Darfur.... it isn't the UN that failed to act, it is our own government and our EU allies and Russia and China who all failed to act, likely because everyone wants a shot at the oil in the south. See how incidious the pursuit of oil really is.

          But on Iran, we would also have the support of Iran's neighbors, who are quietly just as disturbed at the prospect of a nuclear Iran as the US/EU/Israel is.

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