Skip to main content

View Diary: July 7, 1903: "March of the Mill Children" (110 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Machiavelli died in 1527, fascism was not (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jimstaro, Doodlespook, seabos84

    invented in Italy until the 20th century. Machiavelli was not discussing a fascist regime, states were not organised as national states at the time. In fact, Italy was divided into a series of city-states. Orwell was not necessarily discussing a fascist regime, although certainly a totalitarian one. Not all totalitarian regimes are fascist.

    What we are experiencing economically is consistent with any number of economic policy proposals under a capitalist economic system (of which fascism is but one) it primarily derives from deregulation of the economy, the destruction of the social welfare state, privitisation of government services, and tax laws favouring the wealthy). What is consistent with fascism is the corporatism and the links between corporations and government. However, there are differences with traditional fascism (which I noted above) primarily due to the lack of regulations on the capitalist system and the devolution of state functions to the corporations.

    While political policies of the last administration certainly bear a stronger relationship to those employed by fascist governments (e.g., nationalism, undermining of democracy institutions and the rule of law (rejection also of international law), and ideological control of the media, and the creation of thought-crimes), economically, fascism provided far more to the proles than the last government in the US did.

    Spare me the usual and extremely tedious anti-intellectualism. Knowledge is never the enemy, the more we have the better we can fight the proliferation of these ideas and mobilise people.

    No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable (Adam Smith, 1776, I, p. 96).

    by NY brit expat on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:45:39 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  and the intellectuals rallied the mob when? let's (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jimstaro, NY brit expat

      all get together every few months and read and discuss and chat, and that will pay the rent or mortgage, or put money in my hand to buy food, or pay for me to not work for 3 years while I get retrained outta my shitty career?

      there is anti-thinking, and there is anti-thumb twiddling. 'intellectuals' have plenty of group think in some of their pretend thinking, and their thumb-twiddling disquised as 'intellecutalism' - c'mon.

      1 outta a million of us is some kind of einstein, and then there are the tens of thousands of pretenders who don't want to get a real job, but, want einstein's job. Get a real job - fix something, make something work better. invent a meritocracy which rewards creating social good?

      we - you and I - both want the mob off their lard asses. what flag and what slogan do we rally under?

      I think you're definition misses that all shitty governments, whether they're enlisting the mob to go burn catholics or go burn heretics, or marching off to beat fascism or communism or whateverism -

      they all end up with the mob marching off to slaughter another mob, and, by the way, get a bit of slaughter dumped on their own asses. The slaughter benefits a ruling clique, whether it is a little city-state or a state straddling a continent.

      The difference in the name of these shitty governments is interesting. The Inquisitors were motivated differently than the Maoists or the Stalinists or Hitler's boys or Mussolini's boys. However, IF YOU have a boot stamping on your face, do you really give a fuck what the name of the oppressive philosophy is? Don't you care about not loosing your teeth?

      'FASCIST' brings to mind horrible governments shitting on their citizens and on other citizens so that some pigs at the top can live great, by the standards of people who like to live like pigs at the top. Are we close, today, to what hitler or mussolini did? not yet. Could we turn into an Oceania at war with Eurasia or Eastasia ... yup.

      There are plenty of other shorthands for shitty government which apply at 25,000 feet. Our current power hungry selfish pig shitheads aren't maoists or stalinists or nazis or huegenots or inquisitors ... so what.

      I think 'fascist' is a perfect shorthand for shitty government, and, at 25,000 feet, it applies. Come up with a shorthand which is more precise and which gets people off their asses, I'll use it.

      rmm.  

      Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

      by seabos84 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 10:16:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well to answer your first question, intellectuals (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jimstaro, seabos84, Boisepoet

        created the first and second bourgeois democratic revolutions (US and France), the cooperativist movement in the UK included both intellectuals and workers, moving forward we can look to Louis Blanc (1848 in France), Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels, Rosa Luxembourg, Emma Goldman, the leaders of the Russian revolution (Lenin, Trotsky, Bukharin, Zinoviev were all intellectuals and activists), Antonio Gramsci in Italy, intellectuals led and fought against fascism in Spain and Italy, preachers and intellectuals led the civil rights movement in the US and were responsible for the creation of nationalist and progressive movements all over the 3rd world against colonialism and imperialism. Moving ahead a few years, students led the anti-war movement, intellectuals led the fight-back against Apartheid (both in south africa and internationally). There are many more struggles. We work together and fight together.

        The reason we need to distinguish between things is that different policies and approaches are more appropriate for different situations; our responses will differ dependent upon the situation.

        We don't need a one word description and sometimes a single word cannot describe a situation. Honestly, knowing who is stamping on your face gives a better basis for organisation and understanding your enemy can help you defeat them.

        No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable (Adam Smith, 1776, I, p. 96).

        by NY brit expat on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 10:36:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ah - I grew up on welfare. WHERE is the $$? (0+ / 0-)

          way back when this thread started, I mentioned how in 1980 I felt that people dumb enough to keep their heads up their asses deserved the kicks.

          since before 1980 I've wondered, not only what will get people in the streets - that was fun when I was 8 or 9 in '68 or '69 - BUT how are we going to fundementally change on things work so we don't need to go into the streets?

          Of course, given that, relatively speaking, no one is in the streets for anything, maybe I should just worry about where I can buy the DVD of the Michael Jackson memorial.

          I think people need personal pain to get off their asses ??

          the mass movements you cite - sure there were intellectuals and leaders --- BUT, there were hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands ... who were FED UP and had so few choices that going in the street and throwing bricks seemed like ... not a bad idea.

          You get to that point cuz you're f'ing starving, and you're sick of workign 12 hours a day 6 or 7 days a week, and you're sick of seeing your family members ground into the mud -- and, oh, by the way, along comes some 'intellectual' with honey words or fiery words and ... you 'follow' them. Then, maybe things change, maybe they don't, and hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands go back to worse squalor, the same squalor, or better squalor -- and the 'intellectual' gets feted at the salons.

          WTF are today's 'intellectuals' providing? More tomes telling us ... yawn ... that all the fascist lies are lies!

          Oh, and, BTW, buy my book and I'll autograph it before I jet off to greenwich village / berkeley / boston seattle austin for hte next book signing.

          I think people need personal pain to get off their asses ??

          rmm.

          Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

          by seabos84 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 01:43:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You asked me when in history have intellectuals (0+ / 0-)

            helped to achieve change ... I gave you a history of struggle advanced by ideas and action, I guess that you didn't like that. I have stated that we all need to work together; you have argued that what we need is spontaneous action. I ask you when has spontaneous action alone achieved lasting results? It may have enabled a short term gain or response, but for lasting change we need action backed by ideas.

            Did Luddism stop the exploitation of labour and the replacement of labour by machines; no, it provided immediate satisfaction to destroy the thing eliminating your job but it was only when the working class starting fighting back in an organised fashion that reforms could be forced down the throats of those in power. You clearly are not interested in more than reform, yet you speak as though you actually want something more.

            Now, you have responded by waving your class background as though it provides justification for your argument and as though I had argued that we need to be lead by the intelligensia and should wait for their lead. I hope that it has earned you immediate satisfaction and you have also enjoyed attacking me personally when you know nothing of me or my class background.  My roots are as a long-term political activist who has participated in both solidarity, anti-racist and peace movements. What I have learned though those years all actions require ends and a discussion of means (or tactics and strategies) to achieve those ends in order to be constructive and achieve change.

            No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable (Adam Smith, 1776, I, p. 96).

            by NY brit expat on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 04:41:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  oh my god. I did not parse every period and (0+ / 0-)

              phrase, and, you've taken my writing to task.

              You've taken paths I wouldn't have thought of, but, with my sloppy writing you can surely PROVE I implied those paths.

              I do know that had I been more precise and more deliberate, our paragraphs of erudition would have blathered onto and into who knows where anyway.

              I did forget some key points learned during sitting around the campfire with the assorted hippies in 1971 in the woods of MA.

              AFTER we're all done with our social action and singing and chanting -
              WHO is going to earn the money to get the food, or, who is going to spend the time growing and processing and preparing the food? Where are the dishes and utensils going to come from? Who is going to clean up after eating? What happens near the end of the summer when the woods get ripe from everyone shitting in the woods?

              Aside from the fact that few are getting off their asses over the fascist degradations, adn even if they started to,

              WHAT are we going to change, and HOW are we going to change it so that we have lasting systemic change that can't be taken away by the next bunch of fascist fucks with names other than cheney, raygun, bush, rummy ...

              Do I have contempt for the tens of thousands of faux intellectuals who aren't einsteins and who think they should be paid to ruminate, pontificate and eminate - hell ya.

              How many of the intellectuals running around the seattles and bostons were or are involved with figuring out:

              1. how to rally the troops in a sustainable manner (the 15 feb 2003 anti war demonstrations were great fun - WTF lasted? WTF did they stop? )
              1. how to permenantly putting the haliburtons and enrons and exxons outta business,
              1. how to ACTUALLY technologically replace oil and the scum bags living large outta the oil economy
              1. ... anything useful?

              not enough from what I've seen in my 30 years.

              There are plenty of people with big degrees and big sentences and big tomes and big credentials and big paychecks ... YAWN.

              and Where are we 40 years after 1969?

              tip toeing around using 'fascist'? hard drives filled with grand studies about how the meanies are liars, thieves and meanies? waiting for the lower classes to genuflect in awe to our ivy betters?

              maybe 1 great reason the masses ain't off their asses is cuz - the king is dead, long live the king? WHAT is really going to change by throwing bricks?

              I find it interesting that we both use English, but, we obviously can't communicate.

              rmm.

              Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

              by seabos84 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 05:46:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site