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View Diary: Really Barack! Logging in a rain forest? (123 comments)

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  •  Absolute crap. A virgin forest is an ecosystem. (6+ / 0-)

    Turning virgin forests into tree farms devastates the wide range of smaller plants that thrive in natural systems that allow for some trees to fall. The limited open spaces in virgin forests provide habitat for wildlife.

    You are spouting timber industry propaganda.

    It takes hundreds to thousands of years for nature to create the diverse environment of an old growth forest after a natural catastrophe.

    Unfortunately, humans are creating an unnatural catastrophe that's a major mass extinction event.

    "It's the planet, stupid."

    by FishOutofWater on Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 09:56:24 AM PDT

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    •  what is "timber industry propaganda"? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DawnG

      The timber wars of the 1990s were between two competing versions of "how can effete yuppies who have never worked an honest day in their lives screw over rural working class communities?"  The Sierra Club/Earth First version versus the Charles Hurwitz version.

      We made a mistake by giving either side in that debate any credence.  As a Democrat, which last I checked is still the party of working people, I support the interests of working people over those who would destroy timber communities (or mining, or fishing, or anything else) in the name of some utopian scheme.

      •  you may be a Democrat (0+ / 0-)

        but you are a conservative Democrat, if so.

        "The longer you live and think, the more things tend to get out of hand." - Jack Levine

        by mieprowan on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:27:20 AM PDT

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        •  well to the left of center (0+ / 0-)

          on labor issues, economics, and on things like choice and gay rights.  Not on the left on much of anything else these days though.  Anyway, you say conservative Democrat as if that's somehow a bad thing.

          My views are pretty much the same as the typical Democrat in West Virginia, where I now live; Northwest timber country, where I used to live; the rural southwestern U.S., where I also used to live; and Kentucky and southwest Virginia, where my ancestors were mainly from.  Although I suspect I'm well to their left on gay rights and abortion.  Note: I don't mean progressive activists or infiltrators from the Green Party, I mean the typical Democrat - the person who is registered Democratic, votes Democratic, and thinks the world of Joe Manchin, Phil Bredesen, Harry Reid, John Dingell, Heath Schuler, Bob Casey, Tom Vilsack, etc. instead of attacking them at every turn.

          The extremist causeheads (especially radical environmentalists, animal rights activists, those who think the salvation of the world hinges on some fringe nostrum like ending corporate personhood or a cabinet level department of peace, and those who might use "DINO" as part of their vocabulary, etc.) need to get over their delusion that they are some sort of repository of Democratic Party values, because they aren't.  Their ideas have no support whatsoever among the Democratic Party rank and file voters.  At best they are useful idiots.  At worst they are infiltrators and entryists who need to be shown the door.

          •  well, some of them think (0+ / 0-)

            people like you need to be shown the door.

            I will not argue to throw conservatives out of the Democratic party, however; or off this blog, either. But I think some people need to be a bit more aware that this is a Democratic blog, not a liberal blog. Not to chastise anyone or anything; just to clarify the conversation somewhat.

            You sound rather libertarian. Libertarians have their merits, but from my liberal point of view; it's not good enough.

            Such debates are important to have here. I'd try to move away from name-calling though; it's inflammatory and tends to derail reasonable debates into flame wars. When people refer to extreme leftists and extreme environmentalists as causeheads, fringy, useful idiots, infiltrators and entryists, etc.; they do sound trollish, and it will not do you much good to engage in discourse here thusly, as you do not have any more right to throw such people out of the Democratic party than they have to throw you out.

            "The longer you live and think, the more things tend to get out of hand." - Jack Levine

            by mieprowan on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:37:52 PM PDT

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            •  I'm well aware of this (0+ / 0-)

              "well, some of them think people like you need to be shown the door."

              which I hope explains why my attitude has turned nasty since the election.  It wasn't a week after Obama was elected that there were people ready to proclaim that he should be shown the door because his cabinet appointments were mainstream Democrats instead of hardcore lefties.  Follow that up with a loud minority here cheering on the impending collapse of the Big Three on the grounds that "global warming" is such a pressing issue that good union jobs be damned, pushed me over the edge.  I no longer view the Republican right as the main obstacle to progress right now, let's put it that way.  They've moved to the #2 spot.

              "But I think some people need to be a bit more aware that this is a Democratic blog, not a liberal blog."

              That's been my point for quite some time but even Kos himself seems to have flipped on this issue, unfortunately.

              "You sound rather libertarian".

              Not really...I'm almost the opposite of libertarians on minimum and living wage laws, unions and labor law, and international trade.  If you take economics out of the picture I otherwise probably line up with them on most things.

              •  okay, so you're basically anti-green (0+ / 0-)

                is that what you're saying?

                How do you feel about science?

                When Kos started this blog, he self-declared as a liberal, fwiw.

                What are you looking to progress towards?

                I can see a big issue for you is protecting unions. I expect you're anti-NAFTA, etc. I would be adamantly pro-NAFTA if environmental regulations and human rights protections were consistent worldwide. As it is, I have mixed feelings about it, but I cannot just ignore the fact that people in other countries who are being employed to drive prices down, need to eat too.

                "The longer you live and think, the more things tend to get out of hand." - Jack Levine

                by mieprowan on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 08:48:53 PM PDT

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    •  WTF? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      canyonrat, steve04

      Look, logging does not exist in a vaccum.  People knock down trees because other people need wood.  It's that simple.

      It is not going to go away no matter how much you spout off about raping "Virgin" forests.   There are pesticides that are so widley used they show up in rainwater around the world.  There is no such thing as "virgin" anything anymore on THIS planet.

      You are entitled to express your opinion. But you are NOT entitled to agreement.

      by DawnG on Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 11:54:58 AM PDT

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      •  so, since the environment is polluted (0+ / 0-)

        we should just write it off? It's just there to use, and when we finish killing it we'll invent something else?

        "The longer you live and think, the more things tend to get out of hand." - Jack Levine

        by mieprowan on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:29:04 AM PDT

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