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View Diary: How Ohio was Rigged For Bush (266 comments)

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  •  you wanted to know how this happened (none)
    Dem - In our previous dialogue on this topic, we were speculating as to how the lousy allocation of machines might have happened.  Interesting to get some facts on that, isn't it?

    What do you think it will take to give this "critical mass", if I may ask? - I'm assuming that agree that this is solid and not tin-foilish at this point.

    I personally think we need one of our party's brighter stars to take this on as their own, hold a press conference, highlight what happened here, propose legislation to prevent it from EVER happening again - I've already spoken to Hillary's office - he said he'll pass it on to her.  I was also thinking Obama, but I'm not sure if he is the best person.  I suspect that Kerry is not.

    Any thoughts?  I really believe that we have to put a stop to this, we wind up with a 2 - 3 point "vote suppression factor" deficit before the damned election starts, and wouldn't you know it, that's just what we seem to lose by.  

    Voting rights are our most important rights because all the other ones depend on them

    by markusd on Mon Nov 22, 2004 at 09:40:15 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I'm at work and haven't had time to sit and read.. (none)
      but I will. Recognize that if a guy is involved with the suit his stuff is not 'dispassionate' and 'detatched'. Doesn't mean it's untrue. Give me a chance to catch up.

      And think hard about what it is you want. Moving it to the main page isn't the answer.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Mon Nov 22, 2004 at 09:49:54 AM PST

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      •  wasn't asking for that (none)
        You've already covered a good part of this on a main page story.  This one advances that story with additional details as to how it happened, but I was not asking for a main page story.  

        I realize that you are following these diaries and will post on the main page when you think it's justified - as you have already done several times.  

        I was asking for your opinion about where we go with this, because I think it's really, really important that we deal with this - and I respect your opinion.  Maybe the answer is just to let things continue to ripen - the recounts, the lawsuits, and see what comes out of it, but I'm not really a "sit around and wait" kinda guy, so I am trying to figure out what else we can do.

        As far as this fellow's objectivity -- he is a progressive activist.  No doubt about that.  But he is also providing detailed factual data that can be verified independently.  That's why I feel that this is well beyond tin foil territory.  Interestingly, I have noticed that some of the more outspoken "election fraud debunkers" have not challenged this post or related ones at all - the facts seem to strongly support an accusation of "voter suppression by extremely long lines in minority neighborhoods."  Now there's a mouthful.

        Voting rights are our most important rights because all the other ones depend on them

        by markusd on Mon Nov 22, 2004 at 10:02:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  voter supression aka KITV is very real (none)
          I think a diary of summation of

          1. current lawsuits (is he involved with common cause ohio/pissed off voters suit?) including links to the story here, the story/anecdotes I already linked to the 2 Ohio main pagers and other wiki-linked stories/anecdotes of what the suit is about would be helpful.

          Right now, iirc, theres a ton of lawyers actively putting something together based on this, but my gut is that the lawsuits need to ripen. I think that's been posted already.

          2. ohio count/recount links (noted in the wiki) - where are they? I think we're still waiting on wehen the official count is certified/Blackwell foot-dragging, and then the recount starts. is that correct? The wiki has links to local bullitin boards.

          would be great. local Ohioans (including common cause ohio) might provide more guidance. Does that make sense to you?

          P.S. Fraud debunkers don't debunk supression or disenfranchisement. Different animal.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Mon Nov 22, 2004 at 10:25:06 AM PST

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          •  it makes sense. (4.00)
            I've posted enough diaries for today (2) but will work on something like this in the next day or two.  I agree that pulling a lot of this stuff together in one well-written, coherent diary would have value.

            Your take on the Ohio recount is about right, but one county is now flatly refusing to do it - somebody just posted a diary on that, it's Lake County, I believe the diary is now recommended.  I guess they think they can just ignore the frigging law.  Amazing how they think they can get away with that.

            Meantime, progressive interest in this remains sky-high.  My other post today was about the moveon teleconferenc call last night - "election reform" was voted the NUMBER ONE issue that the moveon members want to focus on.  And the list of recommended diaries continues to be dominated by various aspects of this today.  Perhaps our party's leaders will take notice of the fact that the ground troops consider this to be a huge issue and really want something done about this before 2006.  They really have to take this on, or there will be a lot of disappointment and disillusionment, the last thing we need right now.

            Voting rights are our most important rights because all the other ones depend on them

            by markusd on Mon Nov 22, 2004 at 10:32:42 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Whether fraud debunking is a different animal (none)
            than supression and disenfranchisement? I am not so certain that they are different- Doesn't the past history of supression combined with the irregularities indicate at least the stronger likelihood of the possibility of fraud,and the specific need to investigate it?
            •  I addressed this downthread.... (none)
              ...and my answer is yes, it certainly does.  I mean, it's hard enough to prove intent if the alleged actors are known, whereas here they are unknown.  But obviously, the people with motive and opportunity to tamper with the votes are the same people with evident intent to suppress the vote by apparently legal means.  It's not a far-fetched conclusion at all.  

              "Now watch this drive."

              by tompaine2004 on Mon Nov 22, 2004 at 05:05:44 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with DemFromCT's suggestions ... (4.00)
      ...on this, and would like to add one of my own: urge the Ohio Democratic Representatives - Ted Strickland, Marcy Kaptur, Dennis Kucinich, Stephanie Tubbs Jones, Sherrod Brown and Tim Ryan - to start speaking about this issue is as unified a voice as possible. Maybe there's even a Republican among the 12 representing Ohio who thinks the apparent shenanigans of November 2 went beyond the Pale.

      We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. - David Brower

      by Meteor Blades on Mon Nov 22, 2004 at 10:57:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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