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View Diary: Healthcare Reform and the Economy (160 comments)

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  •  It will only cost what it does... (0+ / 0-)

    in other SP countries if we ration care and make people wait for "elective procedures"

    Obama - Change I still believe in

    by dvogel001 on Sat Jul 25, 2009 at 10:21:31 AM PDT

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    •  and? (0+ / 0-)

      we're already rationing it on the ability to pay.

      You think that's fine? Moral? Ethical?

      Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

      by stitchmd on Sat Jul 25, 2009 at 10:28:06 AM PDT

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      •  When did I say I was not in favor... (0+ / 0-)

        of reform...my only point is that we will never spend as little as SP countries because we will not ration like they do...

        Please do not project your opinion of lack of morality on me...

        Obama - Change I still believe in

        by dvogel001 on Sat Jul 25, 2009 at 10:48:18 AM PDT

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        •  I'm not projecting, I'm asking, (0+ / 0-)

          and you evaded the question.

          We already do ration and we still have the most expensive system in the world without the outcomes benefits to show for it.

          I'm asking you if you think that's ethical. If you can't answer the question, that's not my fault or my projection.

          Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

          by stitchmd on Sat Jul 25, 2009 at 12:58:06 PM PDT

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          •  We already do ration based on the availibility... (0+ / 0-)

            to pay...and that will not change under a public option in the US as it does not change in many countries in Europe where those who are able to pay can opt out of the public option or get supplemental insurance...

            Obama - Change I still believe in

            by dvogel001 on Sat Jul 25, 2009 at 09:23:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  which makes Europe different from Canada (0+ / 0-)

              and it's what I've been saying for weeks, even months, to the single payer group around these parts.

              It's not unreasonable to allow people to buy supplemental insurance if they can pay for it, and allow those people to purchase whatever healthcare services they decide they want. That does, however, allow them to know the true costs of those services and not depend upon the society to pay for them.

              It's still a question of whether it is just or not.

              Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

              by stitchmd on Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 03:40:25 AM PDT

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              •  We cannot win this debate... (0+ / 0-)

                by selling shared sacrifice...we will lose if that is what you are selling...the majority who have health insurance coverage will not sacrifice care for thier family in order to give healthcare to the uninsured...

                Obama - Change I still believe in

                by dvogel001 on Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 07:49:02 AM PDT

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                •  then, frankly, we are all screwed (0+ / 0-)

                  but "the greatest country on Earth" specializes in extreme selfishness in the name of "individual freedom."

                  And so we have the situation we have with health care, with the destruction of the environment, with the credit crunch, because we want it all, we want it now, and we don't want to pay for it. And we deserve it because we're exceptional. That's what Reagan told us, right? That's the mantra we've lived on for too long.

                  And once some of the countries of Europe bought into that, instead of their usual idea of social good and shared sacrifice, they got screwed, too - Iceland and Ireland are the most extreme example.

                  But I guess it's okay as long as you've got yours, right? If you had to truly pay the costs for all of what you've talked about getting for your family, would you feel the same way?

                  Come on down to the clinic where I work some time and talk about the idea that 'shared sacrifice' ain't gonna work. Make sure you're wearing body armor, though.

                  Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

                  by stitchmd on Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 09:28:56 AM PDT

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                  •  If you want real reform... (0+ / 0-)

                    it will have to be sold by getting efficiencies by not duplication of services...not by telling people hey there is this great chemotherapy...but you are not worth the cost to save your life so we will give you the inferior one...

                    Obama - Change I still believe in

                    by dvogel001 on Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 10:18:00 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

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