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  •  Maybe naive (1+ / 1-)
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    Ray Blake

    over the degree to which pacifism can counter hate. But not anti-Semitic -- at least no more than any other Christian group.

    All my IP addresses have been banned from

    by charliehall on Sat Jul 25, 2009 at 09:21:41 PM PDT

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    •  HR'd for broad inflammatory accusation (0+ / 0-)

      against Christians

      I never liked you and I always will.

      by Ray Blake on Sat Jul 25, 2009 at 09:49:32 PM PDT

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      •  I uprated it (0+ / 0-)

        Because the bible, or at least the new testament, can certainly be read as an anti-Judaic document. Now, I'd argue that many Christians (the Society of Friends among them - shame on the Koret and Taub foundations) clearly don't read it as such, but it's not outside the realm of reason to argue that Christianity is, fundamentally, anti-Semetic.

        See, for example:

        For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men.

        I Thessalonians 2:14-15

        •  Charliehall didn't make any such argument so (0+ / 0-)

          your defense has nothing to do with what he said. And it's one thing to say that a few passages in the bible might be construed as anti-semitic, quite another to state that all Christian groups are to some degree anti-semitic because of those passages. The Torah condones slavery--does that mean Judaism is inherently racist? I could pull plenty of damning quotes from the Torah, the Koran or the N.T. if my goal was to slam the whole lot of these religions and their various subgroups. I doubt if charliehall would put up with that for a second.

          As for your reading of Thessalonians, remember it was written by Saul of Tarsus, better known as Paul, who was himself Jewish. It's one of the earliest dated documents in the New Testament, written before there was any institutional Christianity to speak of. Paul himself had been a persecutor of Jesus' fledgling sect, of course, before his conversion.

          The death of Jesus was understandably a sore point among Jewish followers of Jesus like Paul who believed the Sanhedrin had turned him over to the Romans. This is not a broad indictment against "the Jews" on his part, but a statement about perceived religious persecution by the Sanhedrin.

          Note that Paul praises the Jewish churches in Judea--the very ones that he previously persecuted. Note also that he points out the persecution that was rampant against sect members in the Roman Empire. It's no secret that the "The Way", this small sect of Jesus' followers, was not popular among Jewish religious authorities or the Roman Pagans.

          Of course, it was the Romans who crucified Jesus. Whether Paul understood that or not is unknown. If he did, he may still have blamed the Sanhedrin. In any case, he's no more critical of his fellow Jews here than Isaiah was in the so-called "old" Testament. The prophets are notable for their inflammatory invective against their own brethren, and Isaiah was clearly Paul's role model for this style of ranting.

          I never liked you and I always will.

          by Ray Blake on Sat Jul 25, 2009 at 10:57:25 PM PDT

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          •  Excuse me, but (0+ / 0-)

            There has been a long history of Christian anti-Semitism. Do you discount that?

            Things are much better today but the Southern Baptist Convention still spends millions of dollars to convert Jews to Christianity.

            My understanding is that Quakers do no such thing. But to the extent that any Christian sect denies that Judaism is a legitimate religion, I have a problem with that. Do you? (I am unaware of the position of the Quakers on this. And this may be a manifestation of triumphalism rather than anti-Semitism.)

            All my IP addresses have been banned from

            by charliehall on Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 08:25:49 AM PDT

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