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View Diary: Ask Senators For Balance In MidEast "Dear Colleague" Letter (Updated) (235 comments)

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  •  as i said... (3+ / 0-)

    above - the status quo is no longer for the mere fact that there is engaged US leadership on this issue. the majority of people want peace - honestly time is up for those who would oppose this. and if hamas and likud want to instead impede this process it will only serve to make them more irrelevant.

    "Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" - Allen Ginsberg

    by canadian gal on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 10:20:59 AM PDT

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    •  While I like the idea of Hamas and Likud (5+ / 0-)

      becoming irrelevant - I think I disagree with this. The longer this drags out the more relevant they become - both have a stake in maintaining the conflict.

      Think of it this way - the longer this drags out benefits Hamas this way: Hamas keeps up it's "fight the power rhetoric" - the Palestinians see that compromise gets them nowhere so they figure: "fuck it - at least we go down fighting". AND as the compromises don't stop the settlements or anything else - they become seen as the only legit resitance group around.

      For Likud: The more extreme Hamas gets the more Israel can say - "look at these crazies - you need us to keep the peace. Only we can stand up to them and fight them to win." Thus, every suicide bomb or rocket gets more Likud voters because one thing Israel doesn't do is back down from a fight.

      It is getting to be "time is up" as you say for long term solutions where there is an Israel and a Palestine 100 years from now. The only thing that can stop this is superpower intervention and some severe re-thinking. I think that can happen with the Obama plan. I think it needs to happen before this goes critical.

      Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

      by volleyboy1 on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 10:38:55 AM PDT

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      •  "severe rethinking" (0+ / 0-)

        is the key here.

        and you're right in that there are groups that thrive and flourish with conflict. and i believe that obama referenced them in his cairo speech.

        but the whole point here is that this will be a negotiation which will require compromise and hair-pulling amongst all parties.

        put differently, when one makes an opening offer on the purchase of a house it requires both parties engaged in the process. for those who would oppose this negotiations to begin with - that includes both sides i'm afraid -  they are effectively making themselves irrelevant.

        "Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" - Allen Ginsberg

        by canadian gal on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 10:46:49 AM PDT

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        •  how do you think hamas is impedeing the process? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza

          for those who would oppose this negotiations to begin with - that includes both sides i'm afraid -  they are effectively making themselves irrelevant.

          are you talking about likud and hamas?

          btw British MPs want gov't to engage Hamas

          Only around 30 MPs and peers attended the meeting, which was set up to support the position that there can be no peace in the Middle East without talking to the Islamist movement. Mashaal was unable to address the meeting when the video link failed.

          The decision to allow a representative of Hamas, considered a terrorist organization in the UK, to speak in Parliament was condemned by Israel's ambassador to Britain as well as by the Foreign Office and an array of politicians.

          hamas has expressed it wants to be part of the process , rbguy presented supporting evidence of this in his last diary.

          •  a complicated question. (0+ / 0-)

            hamas' charter and actions for the better part of their existence has largely been one big bit of incitement and moral gaps.

            honestly - im not sure how i feel about engaging hamas. i read and rec'd rbguy's last diary as i think he made some interesting points.... but now i think before anything like this can happen, hamas must prove to all who want such proof that they are interested in peace, international opinion or even palestinian opinion.

            and yes - the onus is on them to do so.

            "Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" - Allen Ginsberg

            by canadian gal on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 02:01:15 PM PDT

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            •  i understand (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              canadian gal

              the issues w/their charter and history and how that might be a concern for anyone.

              hamas must prove to all who want such proof that they are interested in peace, international opinion or even palestinian opinion.

              well.... the proof is in the pudding and lately there are positive signs. frankly the 'prove it' thing complicates matters because then it becomes a question of 'by whose standards'. it also begs the question why? because i don't see anyone asking israel to prove they are interested in peace and all signs point to the suggestion many factions have no interest if it means relinquishing hopes and dreams of a greater israel. so far many people think this delay of decades is by design. if what is good to for the goose is good for the gander neither of them has proved anything. by the standard of no place at the table without proof no one deserves a place at the table and then we are back at square one with israel holding all the cards and the palestinian taking the day to day brunt of the occupation.

              anyway thank you for your response. ultimately i am interested in all parties having a say because i think it will bode better for a lasting enduring solution.

    •  I don't know if time is up, (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zannie, corvo, Terra Mystica, canadian gal

      but then again you're more optimistic than I am.  I do like to think that something is changing.  But realistically, I don't think anything will change in I/P until the US completely and unequivocally commits itself to a fair and equitable end to the Occupation.

      •  i do. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zannie, volleyboy1

        its like the chicken/egg analogy. how can we negotiate until the occupation ends? but how can the occupation change without negotiations?

        all these terms and complexities of the situation only serve to make people more entrenched on their position and as history has shown not proven fruitful. go and start the negotiations i say and all will be dealt with full stop.

        and i'll add that i am not that naive to think that both sides will come out of the final plan happy campers - but at least we'll see some progress.

        "Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" - Allen Ginsberg

        by canadian gal on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 10:53:40 AM PDT

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