Skip to main content

View Diary: Don't go to church? God hates you and Denny's does too (240 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  how'bout a developer offering a 10% discount (0+ / 0-)

    on the price of a new house, to members of a specific church?

    How'bout a barber charging more to cut "Negro hair"...?

    Sorry bro' but I have to call you on this one.  

    It's religious discrimination to effectively charge a higher price to some persons because of their religious affiliation or absence thereof.  

    And let's not forget that GW Bush Senior once declared that atheists should not be citizens and could not be truly patriotic, and never retracted that statement or apologized for it.  

    Atheists are right up there with gay folks (of which I'm one) in terms of minorities who come in for all manner of discrimination and overt hatred.  Enough is enough.  

    •  You're wrong (0+ / 0-)

      Denny's isn't offering the discount to members of a specific church. They are offering it to members of any church and there's nothing implying that it's restricted to Christians. My guess is the only restriction is the bulletin has to be from a real church, synagogue, temple, mosque, etc., as recognized by law. I'll point out most people even if they have a faith do not attend services, so they can't take advantage of the discount because they don't go where they can get the token required by the discount.

      Your racial analogy also doesn't apply because unlike attending religious services, what kind of hair someone has isn't something that's a choice.

      I'm atheist and I don't feel discriminated against any more than I feel discriminated against when I can't order from the senior menu, can't get discounts because I'm not affiliated with a certain association or the member of a local community club, or because I didn't attend a sporting or other event.

      BTW, you don't have to be a church goer or even religious to get a church bulletin. If getting a 10% discount on greasy artery clogging food is that important to you, simply stop by a UU church, pick up a bulletin (they're usually really close to the door) and head to Denny's. You don't have to prove you were ever at a service. Heck even ask one of your religious nut neighbors or co-workers (we all have them) if you can have theirs.

      It's nothing more than a standard marketing gimmick designed to get people to walk through the door and buy their product. It's an easy coupon program. Nothing more, nothing less.

      Come find me when Denny's starts turning away people based on their religious beliefs or lack thereof, their race, gender, sexual orientation, eye color, ear size, etc. THEN you might have a case of discrimination and I'll happily join you in your protest. A discount program even if it requires a church bulletin as a coupon is not discrimination.

      As far as I'm concerned this is noise and a distraction. It takes our attention away from cases of real discrimination and it's not any different than the members of the religious right claiming they're persecuted because they don't always get their way.

      Geez.

      When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

      by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:51:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it's cultural reinforcement of the idea that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MakeChessNotWar

        church-goers are somehow more deserving than non-church-goers.

        And it's illegal in any case because it provides for discriminatory treatment based on religious affiliation.  

        You're welcome to disagree all you like, but any civil rights attorney who sees our little arguement here is going to agree with me.  

        As for complete denial of service, that's also nonsense, called "separate but equal."  You don't have to deny service to be guilty of illegal discrimination.

    •  PS (0+ / 0-)

      I'm a gay atheist who grew up and lived for many years in the south. I've lived discrimination. I've been fired from a job for being gay even though I was the most productive employee. I've been denied housing for the same reason. I've even been arrested for being gay.

      If you think a discount program is some form of discrimination then you've never experienced the real deal.

      When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

      by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 09:16:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So, if Denny's offered a 10% discount to (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek

        "Straight people", and donated the 10% to a campaign to outlaw same sex marriage, you'd be fine with that - and would tell people who want to protest that to get over it, because you've experienced "real" discrimination?

        What if they asked for a marriage certificate to prove that you are straight? Would you still think it's no big deal?

        As for,

        Denny's isn't offering the discount to members of a specific church. They are offering it to members of any church and there's nothing implying that it's restricted to Christians.

        You are falling for the misconception that "nondenominational" equals inclusive and nondiscriminatory. That is not the case, as it excludes atheists.

        The flyer specifically says the discount is offered to church members "Bring us a copy of your church bulletin" and furthermore takes the 10% and gives it to "your church".

        And, no, it doesn't say "church/synagogue/mosque", it says church. But, the fact that you think that if it did, it would be ok - because discriminating against other religions is bad, but discriminating against atheists is good - says more about your ethical compass than theirs (regardless of what you personally do or do not believe).

        You may be willing to accept anti-atheist sentiment as just part of America, but I am not.

        Final point - the greasiness of the food is not the issue. Are you suggesting that it would be ok for Denny's to bar "Negroes", because the food sucks anyway? If not, then don't make disingenuous and irrelevant arguments.

        One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

        by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 10:28:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  False Dichotomy (0+ / 0-)

          Denny's isn't doing anything like that. They're not offering a discount to people of any one church or sect or religion and donating to any campaign to outlaw another church or sect or religion.

          You're seeing discrimination where there is none. Just because it isn't on the flyer doesn't mean they won't honor a bulletin from a synagogue or a mosque. It could be nothing more than cultural insensitivity. Until they say to someone who isn't Christian "Sorry, I can't accept that bulletin for the discount," you have nothing upon which to base a claim of discrimination.

          Denny's isn't barring anyone from eating in their establishments. Again you're throwing up a false equivalency argument.

          Again when Denny's actually tells someone they can't eat in their restaurants due to race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc., you have no grounds for a claim of discrimination. You aren't entitled to a discount just because you walked in the door.

          When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

          by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 10:45:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Again, you're missing the point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek

            They're not offering a discount to people of any one church or sect or religion and donating to any campaign to outlaw another church or sect or religion.

            They are specifically excluding members of my belief group - atheists. It is as illegal to discriminate against atheists as it is against Jews or Catholics of Muslims.

            If it would be wrong for Denny's to tell people to bring in a coupon from "your Judeo-Christian house of worship", then it is just as wrong for them to tell people to bring a coupon from their "non-atheist house of worship", which is what this is.

            You should read below, where a similar practice was challenged in Maryland. The resolution was to explicitly include atheists in the offer.

            I would have absolutely no problem if the discount program said, "your church or other civic organization".

            Church only is discriminatory.

            One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

            by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 11:12:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're the one who is missing the point (0+ / 0-)

              and injecting all kinds of false equivalency arguments.

              It's a marketing promotion. Nothing more. If you don't like it, then vote with your wallet and don't eat at Denny's.

              When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

              by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 11:17:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Where is the false equivalency? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                G2geek

                Why is excluding atheists any different than excluding Jews?

                One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 11:39:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No one is entitled to a discount (0+ / 0-)

                  just for walking in. It's no different than being excluded because you're not a member of AAA.

                  When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                  by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:02:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And yet, you haven't answered the simple (0+ / 0-)

                    genuine equivalency question - if the same restaurant had offered a 10% discount to heterosexual couples - and required a marriage certificate to prove it - would you be dismissing it so cavalierly?

                    One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                    by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:36:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You're posing a lot of hypotheticals (0+ / 0-)

                      And you're assuming things not in evidence. Show me where they've refused to honor the discount based upon religious views.

                      As I pointed out elsewhere you can pick up a church bulletin pretty easily and you don't have to go to a service or even have faith to get one.

                      All they're doing is using a church bulletin as a form of coupon. There are no religious tests to obtain one unless you try to start a scene in a church.

                      I still think you're reading far more into the promotion than is there and it's due to your own biases.

                      When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                      by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:51:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So, your answer is for me to "pass" (0+ / 0-)

                        Do you tell gays facing discrimination to pretend they are "straight" as well?

                        What if the coupon were available to all heterosexual couples that brought in a picture of themselves at their wedding?

                        Would you tell gays to pose with a friend of the opposite sex for a picture, so they can qualify? After all, what's the big deal about being in the closet, right? Just pass as the "right" kind of person.

                        One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                        by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:58:31 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It's not the same thing (0+ / 0-)

                          You're posing questions that cross the border between reality and absurd.

                          Having a church bulletin is not proof of anything. You don't have to be religious or even have faith to get one. The bar is really, really, low on it and I'll bet if you asked for the discount you'd probably get it without presenting a bulletin. I'll bet just bringing the flyer would work just fine.

                          You're simply assuming it won't work without any real evidence to back up that assumption.

                          They're just trying to drum up some Sunday lunch business, that's all. Why does everything have to be thoroughly scrutinized under an electron microscope for even the slightest hint of perceived discrimination? It's getting so people can't even enjoy a crap meal without some immature hypersensitive nut going on about how s/he is being discriminated against because they aren't getting a discount someone else got. Grow up for crying out loud!

                          If you don't like the promo, don't eat at Denny's. It's not like they're the only source of nutrition in the world and everyone is forced to eat there.

                          When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                          by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 04:28:54 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I’m posing uncomfortable questions (0+ / 0-)

                            that you do not want to address, because they expose a gap in your ideological consistency.

                            The issue isn't Denny's, the issue is the response of people like you - which represent the majority of the public - to cultural exclusion of atheists.

                            When I ask you to make a simple intellectual experiment and judge your reaction to an identical exclusion of gays, you refuse to address it.

                            Because you know you would be far less tolerant of that kind of cultural discrimination.

                            And the same thing goes if, in fact, they made it churches only and excluded Jews. You'd be far more concerned - but you won't admit it, because you won't even address the issue front-on.

                            This is only an issue for me and others because it is indicative of a cultural pattern of socially acceptable exclusion of atheists, not because of the isolated case of a few pennies off a crappy junk food restaurant. It's true in the Boy Scouts, it's true in the military in terms of access to social services, it's true in government employment where Eagle Scouts are automatically hired at a higher starting pay grade - an opportunity explicitly denied to atheists, it's true when public figures stereotype and denigrate atheists as a class in ways that would be unacceptable when targeted at any other minority in America, it's true in many other ways every day of our lives.

                            You keep making arguments based on the triviality of eating at Denny's - but, of course, that isn't the issue at all - if Denny's were barring colored people at the door, you'd hardly tell them not to worry about it, since "it's not like they're the only source of nutrition in the world and everyone is forced to eat there".

                            So, clearly the issue isn't how important Denny's is in America's nutritional composition.

                            The issue is that you tolerate cultural exclusion of atheists in a way you would not tolerate cultural exclusion of any other group.

                            And the issue is that so does the rest of America - including most who call themselves "progressive" and "Democrats".

                            I've tried to engage you in a frank open discussion about the broader issue. It clearly makes you uncomfortable, as evidenced by your stubborn refusal to respond to the substance of the broader argument.

                            One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                            by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:03:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  They're not uncomfortable questions (0+ / 0-)

                            They're questions that border on insane because no one is doing any of them. They don't happen in the real world. That makes them irrelevant.

                            Prove to me there's real discrimination going on. Show me someone who was denied service or the discount based upon religious beliefs THEN I'll get behind you. Until then you're just speculating and imposing your own biases upon the object of your derision.

                            For all we know the whole thing could be a hoax designed to get people to stop eating at Denny's.

                            When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                            by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:11:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Atheists are regularly discriminated against (0+ / 0-)

                            there is ample documentation of discrimination in child custody cases, in adoption cases, in employment, particularly in school districts, as well as institutional discrimination in the form of disparate compensation in federal employ, use of taxpayer subsidies for organizations that bar atheists, discrimination in the military, and many more instances.

                            In addition, studies show that atheists are the least trusted, most hated minority in America  - even right after 9/11, bigotry against Muslims was measured as less than anti-atheist sentiment.

                            Despite continued legal discrimination against same-sex couples, gays serve in all areas of public office, elected and appointed, including the White House staff as well as Senators and House members.

                            At the local level, representation is even more prominent.

                            Yet no open atheist can hope to campaign for and be elected to public office in the US - and neither major party would ever endorse an atheist candidate.

                            As an atheist, I have to be honest with my politically aware and engaged children and admit to them that public office is likely closed to them, if they choose to be honest and open about their religious preferences. If they were gay or lesbian, no problem - but atheist! Forget about it.

                            My family has experienced discrimination in many different places - overt, explicit discrimination, not hypothetical.

                            Atheists are tolerated as long as we remain in the closet. The moment we speak up we are targeted for the most venomous assault. And even public figures can engage in it with no repercussions.

                            Unless you with to argue that atheists are, in actual fact, an inferior species - and, as an atheist, albeit an accommodationist, I hope and trust you wouldn't go so far - then the only rationale for such widespread hatred of atheists - a negative attitude that crosses political boundaries, economic boundaries, gender boundaries, sexual preference boundaries, religious boundaries - the only explanation can be that we as a society tolerate and indulge that particular form of bigotry, while rejecting others.

                            Again, this particular Denny's isn't the issue. The issue is the contortions people go through to prove there is no discrimination, in contrast to what the response would be if any other group were excluded save atheists.

                            Every time you hear, "god-fearing" used as praise, and you don't speak up, you are empowering and complicit with perpetuating negative attitudes about atheists.

                            Every time you hear "no atheists in foxholes", and laugh it off, you are part of the problem.

                            Just like, every time I here a gamer in one of the games I produced say, "don't be so gay", and don't use it as an opportunity to open a mind, I am part of the problem.

                            There is no need for such a compassion and empathy deficit here. I am often puzzled when the most militant activists for one cause or another feel compelled to aggressively reject the legitimacy of someone else's claim.

                            I've never suggested that discrimination against atheists makes discrimination against gays any less of an issue, and I've never made any claim the two are comparable.

                            The analogies I've offer as thought experiments are not "false equivalencies", as you claim - they are meant to expose a fundamental hypocrisy between how our society treats all forms of discrimination, vs how we treat discrimination against atheists.

                            Even in a hypothetical situation where the nature of the discrimination were exactly the same, the truth is that no one here would react the same way to an overt case of discrimination against atheists vs discrimination against Jews, for example.

                            Don't believe me?

                            How many times has a candidate for office been hammered on all sides for membership in a private club that excludes Jews? It's the virtual kiss of death, politically.

                            Now, ask yourself - how many times as a candidate - even a progressive Lefty candidate - gotten into hot water for being an Eagle Scout, for participation in an organization that explicitly bars atheists?

                            If the Boy Scouts ever comes up, it's always in the context of barring gays - not barring atheists.

                            There is a lot of outrage over bigots who seek to get gay teachers fired. But, there are plenty of cases where bigots try to get atheist teachers fired - and we can never find a single faith leader to condemn it.

                            There is a double standard, and my comments meant to expose it.

                            You keep harping on Denny's all you like. That won't change the underlying reality, even if you deny it or are fortunate enough to live in circumstances where you and your family don't face discrimination because of your religious preference.

                            One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                            by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:34:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

                            Atheists are routinely discriminated against, however I don't consider a Denny's discount to be that big of a deal especially when there's nothing keeping me from getting a church bulletin or asking for the discount anyway.

                            In other words we have bigger fish to fry than a stupid 10% discount at Denny's that no one can show ever resulted in any real discrimination.

                            If a business discriminates against me for any reason they won't get my custom. More often than not they have competition who will be more than happy to provide the same goods or services and won't care about whatever status I happen to have.

                            When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                            by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:43:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Do you believe that is the prevailing attitude? (0+ / 0-)

                            Let's try this another way. Let's assume you view all expressions of prejudice with equal opposition, and react to all manifestations of prejudice with the same response, no matter who the target of the discrimination is.

                            Do you believe that is the prevailing response in America?

                            Do you think people who object to expressions of prejudice against gays generally have the same reaction when they encounter expressions of prejudice against atheists?

                            Do you believe the public response to a public figure denigrating gays would be the same as if a public figure denigrated atheists? How about a public figure denigrating Jews? Muslims? Women? People with disabilities?

                            It is not legal to discriminate in employment against members of the LGBT community, or against women, or against Jews or Muslims, of against people with disability - or, against atheists.

                            Do you claim that, when members of the public learn about illegal discrimination against an individual member of these groups, that - whether they are a right wing bigot, a left wing progressive, or anyone in between - that,whatever form of discrimination they condemn in their worldview - do you claim that it is common if not ubiquitous to react with the same vehement rejection to discrimination against atheists?

                            Let's assume you are the exception to the rule, and it's all the same to you. Can you at least acknowledge that you are, in fact, the exception to the rule - as every public survey on the matter has demonstrated?

                            One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                            by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:55:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The thing is (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            exotrip

                            You haven't proved there's prejudice at Denny's. All you've done is shown your own.

                            When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                            by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 07:05:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You never respond directly to challenges (0+ / 0-)

                            doesn't reflect well on your intellectual honesty. Clearly, you have no interest in engaging in honest debate, you just keep reiterating the same statement over and over, oblivious of the other conversations taking place all over this thread.

                            We're done. You're more interested in talking than listening, in stating than debating, in merely asserting rather than helping others understand.

                            Call me all the names you want. Ironically, as you continue to complain that I and others are making assumptions about the Denny's manager, you continue to make assumptions about my alleged prejudice and that of others, based on far less evidence.

                            One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                            by RandomActsOfReason on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:52:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your challenges (0+ / 0-)

                            are meaningless because they are not based in anything resembling reality, and yes I did respond. I said I would not give any business I felt was discriminatory my custom. Most businesses know it's not good business to practice discrimination.

                            You've not proved Denny's was actively engaged in discrimination. Neither you nor G2 can point to anything other than a poorly worded flyer. By your definition the senior menu is also discriminatory since age is also a protected class and offering discounts to people over a certain age is age discrimination.

                            It would be discrimination if they put a sign on their door saying "no service to non-christians" and demanded people say "The Lord's Prayer" from memory in order to be seated. Offering a discount to churchgoers is just another promotion which isn't any different than offering discounts to people who belong to auto clubs or have a passport from another country. In the end you're just trying to manufacture some outrage where there isn't really anything about which to be outraged. That's a tactic the right uses and we should be better than that.

                            When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                            by Cali Techie on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:22:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But to answer your question (0+ / 0-)

                            If in some alternate universe the questions you posed were rooted in reality, I would simply take my business where it was wanted. End of story. If they don't want my money that's their problem.

                            When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                            by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:15:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  OK, so I'll have a marketing promotion (0+ / 0-)

                called White Week, and we'll see how long that lasts before I get a letter or visit from a lawyer or law enforcement agency.

                I'll be sure to give them your legal advice that it's only a marketing promotion.   Can I count on you to reimburse my fines if it doesn't fly?

                •  Nope (0+ / 0-)

                  Because you're basing it on something people can't help. You see going to church is a conscious choice where race or skin color is not.

                  Not the same.

                  When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                  by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:03:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  legally it sure the hell is. (0+ / 0-)

                    Religion may be a choice, but it's also a protected category that is legally equivalent to race.

                    Any lawyer around here will agree with me on this.  

                    I hope you realize you're arguing against close to 50 years of settled law.  

                    •  It's not based on religion (0+ / 0-)

                      It's based upon providing a bulletin from a church. You can go into a church and pick up a bulletin without going to a service or having any faith at all.

                      When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                      by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:10:51 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  how'bout someone who's atheist walks up and (0+ / 0-)

            says, I'm atheist, and I don't have a church from which to get a bulletin, so I' asking for the discount anyway.

            And then what happens?

            If they refuse the discount to that person, they are discriminating based on religion (or absence of religion as it were).  

            And how'bout this one:  Someone who was raped by a pedophile priest and developed PTSD that includes having panic attacks whenever they get near the entrance to a church...?   Now we're also looking at disability discrimination, and I'm quite serious about this.  

            Had they simply said, "any religious, scientific, philosophical, or civic organization" or "any organization that is tax exempt such as a house of worship or a nonprofit group serving charitable, educational, or scientific purposes..."  that would have passed.  

            What they said, didn't pass.

            And I'll bet you any lawyer reading this agrees with me that they are engaged in unlawful discrimination.  

            •  You might be surprised (0+ / 0-)

              Have you tried it?

              You're making a ton of accusations based upon assumptions without a shred of evidence backing you up.

              I've received discounts just by asking for them.

              When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

              by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:04:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  so, you're out with your family.... (0+ / 0-)

                ...a family of atheists, just back from a Sunday morning nature walk and informal science class in the public park.   Then you decide to go out for brunch and happen upon this Denny's.  

                Do you really expect to make a ruckus that may upset your kids?   May result in getting less than equal service from the staff?  May result in that vaguely uncomfortable feeling of being in a place where you're not really welcome but you're being tolerated...?  

                This is how insidious discrimination is, when it works at the social level.   You don't want to be rude ...or uppity ... so you just mosey on along to the next eatery.  

                It's not like a Monty Python skit where the family can break out in song:

                "I'm an atheist and I'm OK
                I don't read scripture and I don't pray..."

                And as I said, the lawyers around here will be with me on this one.  

                •  You're itching for a fight (0+ / 0-)

                  when you likely won't get one. You haven't answered my question. Have you tried it? Have you been denied the discount?

                  Until you've tested it all you have are your assumptions. You need to take a look at yourself in the mirror because you seem to be just as bigoted and prejudiced as you're accusing the proprietors of Denny's of being.

                  When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                  by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:22:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You just lost the argument (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    G2geek

                    What is bigoted about G2geek's argument or position?

                    I happen not to have made that particular argument, and don't think it is the compelling issue here - but what about it is "prejudiced" or "bigoted"?

                    Again, I ask you to examine whether you hold the same attitude if the issue were passing as gay rather than passing as atheist.

                    One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                    by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 04:01:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No I haven't (0+ / 0-)

                      G2 is making the assumption that the proprietor of the Denny's in question is a bigot without a shred of evidence to prove it. G2 has already tried and convicted the proprietor in question without ever looking to see if any of his/her assumptions about the Denny's in question were actually true. That means by definition G2 and you have taken a bigoted stance here and your comments offer far more proof of that than anything you've been able to show about the people you accuse of bigotry.

                      Again, I ask you to examine whether you hold the same attitude if the issue were passing as gay rather than passing as atheist.

                      I am a gay atheist. My answer to that is it depends. I've experienced discrimination in regards to both of those traits so I know what it is when I see it. There's nothing keeping me from getting a church bulletin even though I don't believe in any deities. The only thing that might keep me from doing it would be my own choice of not entering a church, and even though I am atheist I have been known to darken the doorstep of a church or two every now and then because every now and then it's important to my friends and loved ones for me to be there for certain events.

                      I'm not any more uncomfortable with not getting the discount than I am not being able to order from the senior citizen menu.

                      When someone can prove there's discrimination, THEN I'll get upset about it, but so far all you and G2 have are assumptions and speculation. Neither of you have any proof of any discrimination other than a poorly worded flyer.

                      When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

                      by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 04:16:52 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I have not assumed anything about the owner (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        G2geek

                        It is you who desperately want to make this all about that single instance, rather than about a broader cultural issue. I have made exactly zero statements about the owner of the Denny's in question, nor have I made any assumptions about their intent. I have address the substance of the flyer, and, more importantly, the substance of the responses to it.

                        You respond by calling me and others bigots. It is interesting that you choose to go down that path, when other options are available to you.

                        It is unfortunate you feel compelled to personalize the issue.

                        And it is unfortunate that your willingness to pass as a theist when convenient (but not, I assume, as a straight when convenient) gives you the arrogance to assume that your position of accommodation is the only right one for everyone else.

                        I'd like to live in a society, and have my children live in a society, where they are not automatically considered to be immoral and untrustworthy merely because of their atheism; where they don't have to grow up knowing that public office is entirely closed to them if they choose to live openly with integrity rather than in the closet; where being an atheist is not such a source of shame and discomfort that even atheists deny the overwhelming cultural bias against them - even when it is revealed in study after study, survey after survey, and even when they have usually experienced it in their own life.

                        I remember a time when many homosexuals preferred to live in the closet, and were quite hostile to their peers when they started to come out with gay pride and stop hiding from the world. This is nothing new.

                        You keep focusing narrowly on the legalities, as if cultural, social discrimination and prejudice don't matter.

                        As I've said before, civil rights have always been both a legal and a cultural battle. You don't win only in the courts - long after segregation ended, we fought for representation of positive role models on TV for people of colors. Long after gays gained protection from workplace discrimination, we continue to fight against negative stereotypes in popular culture. Long after women gained legal equality, we continue to fight against misogynistic portrayals of women in urban music, music videos and other forms of entertainment.

                        This is not just about legal discrimination. Atheists technically have equal rights.

                        What we lack is equal respect.

                        Apparently, seeking that is inherently offensive to some - even to some atheists, and certainly to many theists here who have responded with deep hostility even to the mildest suggestion that atheists are largely excluded in practice, if not by law, from political power, cultural rituals, and positive, tolerant attitudes in the general public.

                        What about that is so damned offensive? Why does it justify such venom?

                        Atheists are not seeking to deny anyone else their rights, nor their equal respect in the public sphere.

                        Atheists - even the most strident among us - are not seeking laws that deny others their freedoms.

                        Atheists are not looking to drag anyone down to our level of mistrust and hatred among the public.

                        Why the hostility?

                        One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                        by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:18:15 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  well said, bro' (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          RandomActsOfReason

                          And you're right, I made no assumptions about the owner's state of mind.  The wording itself is the problem, and it's discriminatory on its face.  

                          In case you're interested as to why I personally wouldn't be able/willing/whatever, to waltz into a church and grab a flyer.

                          Basically that it would be ethically wrong to exhibit behaviors that would effectively pretend to be of a faith tradition that I am not engaged in, particularly as a means to a financial end.  This would be similar to pretending pacifism in order to evade the draft.  

                          I was in the gay closet from my folks for years, and detested the fact of living a lie.  That situation is now resolved favorably, and having lived that lie for 20-odd years, I'd sooner eat bugs than do it again.  

                          One has to be true to one's deeper nature.  About who one loves, about what one believes about the universe at-large and our existence in it, about what one believes about war and peace and one's obligations to one's community and nation and world.  Nature itself does not lie about the fundamental facts of existence, and that's a good example to follow.  

                          •  Apologists are nothing if not consistent (0+ / 0-)

                            as in, they consistently suggest morally dubious means to get around things that are inconvenient.

                            As Gandhi said,

                            I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

                            One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                            by RandomActsOfReason on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:59:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm in Oakland California, not Texas. (0+ / 0-)

                    Around here the religious righties are in the closet, and it's a safe zone for atheists, agnostics, and wiccans and pagans, who are an equally discriminated-against minority in terms of beliefs (stereotyped pictures during the fall holidays, included).  Any eatery that tried something like this around here would rapidly find itself losing customers.  

                    Dammit, something about this debate reminded me of a Jewish deli/bakery in town that has some damn good New York style cookies, and now I've got the munchies.  

                    OK, me scoot to munch.  I'll write this up as an "agree to disagree" and we'll see each other around here on some other topic.  

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site