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View Diary: Don't go to church? God hates you and Denny's does too (240 comments)

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  •  You might be surprised (0+ / 0-)

    Have you tried it?

    You're making a ton of accusations based upon assumptions without a shred of evidence backing you up.

    I've received discounts just by asking for them.

    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

    by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:04:58 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  so, you're out with your family.... (0+ / 0-)

      ...a family of atheists, just back from a Sunday morning nature walk and informal science class in the public park.   Then you decide to go out for brunch and happen upon this Denny's.  

      Do you really expect to make a ruckus that may upset your kids?   May result in getting less than equal service from the staff?  May result in that vaguely uncomfortable feeling of being in a place where you're not really welcome but you're being tolerated...?  

      This is how insidious discrimination is, when it works at the social level.   You don't want to be rude ...or uppity ... so you just mosey on along to the next eatery.  

      It's not like a Monty Python skit where the family can break out in song:

      "I'm an atheist and I'm OK
      I don't read scripture and I don't pray..."

      And as I said, the lawyers around here will be with me on this one.  

      •  You're itching for a fight (0+ / 0-)

        when you likely won't get one. You haven't answered my question. Have you tried it? Have you been denied the discount?

        Until you've tested it all you have are your assumptions. You need to take a look at yourself in the mirror because you seem to be just as bigoted and prejudiced as you're accusing the proprietors of Denny's of being.

        When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

        by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 03:22:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You just lost the argument (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          G2geek

          What is bigoted about G2geek's argument or position?

          I happen not to have made that particular argument, and don't think it is the compelling issue here - but what about it is "prejudiced" or "bigoted"?

          Again, I ask you to examine whether you hold the same attitude if the issue were passing as gay rather than passing as atheist.

          One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

          by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 04:01:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No I haven't (0+ / 0-)

            G2 is making the assumption that the proprietor of the Denny's in question is a bigot without a shred of evidence to prove it. G2 has already tried and convicted the proprietor in question without ever looking to see if any of his/her assumptions about the Denny's in question were actually true. That means by definition G2 and you have taken a bigoted stance here and your comments offer far more proof of that than anything you've been able to show about the people you accuse of bigotry.

            Again, I ask you to examine whether you hold the same attitude if the issue were passing as gay rather than passing as atheist.

            I am a gay atheist. My answer to that is it depends. I've experienced discrimination in regards to both of those traits so I know what it is when I see it. There's nothing keeping me from getting a church bulletin even though I don't believe in any deities. The only thing that might keep me from doing it would be my own choice of not entering a church, and even though I am atheist I have been known to darken the doorstep of a church or two every now and then because every now and then it's important to my friends and loved ones for me to be there for certain events.

            I'm not any more uncomfortable with not getting the discount than I am not being able to order from the senior citizen menu.

            When someone can prove there's discrimination, THEN I'll get upset about it, but so far all you and G2 have are assumptions and speculation. Neither of you have any proof of any discrimination other than a poorly worded flyer.

            When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

            by Cali Techie on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 04:16:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have not assumed anything about the owner (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              G2geek

              It is you who desperately want to make this all about that single instance, rather than about a broader cultural issue. I have made exactly zero statements about the owner of the Denny's in question, nor have I made any assumptions about their intent. I have address the substance of the flyer, and, more importantly, the substance of the responses to it.

              You respond by calling me and others bigots. It is interesting that you choose to go down that path, when other options are available to you.

              It is unfortunate you feel compelled to personalize the issue.

              And it is unfortunate that your willingness to pass as a theist when convenient (but not, I assume, as a straight when convenient) gives you the arrogance to assume that your position of accommodation is the only right one for everyone else.

              I'd like to live in a society, and have my children live in a society, where they are not automatically considered to be immoral and untrustworthy merely because of their atheism; where they don't have to grow up knowing that public office is entirely closed to them if they choose to live openly with integrity rather than in the closet; where being an atheist is not such a source of shame and discomfort that even atheists deny the overwhelming cultural bias against them - even when it is revealed in study after study, survey after survey, and even when they have usually experienced it in their own life.

              I remember a time when many homosexuals preferred to live in the closet, and were quite hostile to their peers when they started to come out with gay pride and stop hiding from the world. This is nothing new.

              You keep focusing narrowly on the legalities, as if cultural, social discrimination and prejudice don't matter.

              As I've said before, civil rights have always been both a legal and a cultural battle. You don't win only in the courts - long after segregation ended, we fought for representation of positive role models on TV for people of colors. Long after gays gained protection from workplace discrimination, we continue to fight against negative stereotypes in popular culture. Long after women gained legal equality, we continue to fight against misogynistic portrayals of women in urban music, music videos and other forms of entertainment.

              This is not just about legal discrimination. Atheists technically have equal rights.

              What we lack is equal respect.

              Apparently, seeking that is inherently offensive to some - even to some atheists, and certainly to many theists here who have responded with deep hostility even to the mildest suggestion that atheists are largely excluded in practice, if not by law, from political power, cultural rituals, and positive, tolerant attitudes in the general public.

              What about that is so damned offensive? Why does it justify such venom?

              Atheists are not seeking to deny anyone else their rights, nor their equal respect in the public sphere.

              Atheists - even the most strident among us - are not seeking laws that deny others their freedoms.

              Atheists are not looking to drag anyone down to our level of mistrust and hatred among the public.

              Why the hostility?

              One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

              by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 06:18:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  well said, bro' (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RandomActsOfReason

                And you're right, I made no assumptions about the owner's state of mind.  The wording itself is the problem, and it's discriminatory on its face.  

                In case you're interested as to why I personally wouldn't be able/willing/whatever, to waltz into a church and grab a flyer.

                Basically that it would be ethically wrong to exhibit behaviors that would effectively pretend to be of a faith tradition that I am not engaged in, particularly as a means to a financial end.  This would be similar to pretending pacifism in order to evade the draft.  

                I was in the gay closet from my folks for years, and detested the fact of living a lie.  That situation is now resolved favorably, and having lived that lie for 20-odd years, I'd sooner eat bugs than do it again.  

                One has to be true to one's deeper nature.  About who one loves, about what one believes about the universe at-large and our existence in it, about what one believes about war and peace and one's obligations to one's community and nation and world.  Nature itself does not lie about the fundamental facts of existence, and that's a good example to follow.  

                •  Apologists are nothing if not consistent (0+ / 0-)

                  as in, they consistently suggest morally dubious means to get around things that are inconvenient.

                  As Gandhi said,

                  I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

                  One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                  by RandomActsOfReason on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:59:32 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I'm in Oakland California, not Texas. (0+ / 0-)

          Around here the religious righties are in the closet, and it's a safe zone for atheists, agnostics, and wiccans and pagans, who are an equally discriminated-against minority in terms of beliefs (stereotyped pictures during the fall holidays, included).  Any eatery that tried something like this around here would rapidly find itself losing customers.  

          Dammit, something about this debate reminded me of a Jewish deli/bakery in town that has some damn good New York style cookies, and now I've got the munchies.  

          OK, me scoot to munch.  I'll write this up as an "agree to disagree" and we'll see each other around here on some other topic.  

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